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3rd "If you can't beat them, confuse them" 
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Endgame Virtuoso
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Post 3rd "If you can't beat them, confuse them"
Here is a position that arose in one of my games. It's pretty interesting so I thought I might share it with you

Image
Black to move

How would you evaluate this position and how would you continue?

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Last edited by armis on Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:58 am
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Last edited by KingsBlade on Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:36 pm
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Post Re: 3rd "If you can't beat them, confuse them"
Great point. I find myself worrying about material more than the position too much, and when i go back and analyse my games, i figure out that if i didn't worry so much about trading a rook for a bishop i would have won! Thanks for the lesson.


Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:58 pm
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Post Re: 3rd "If you can't beat them, confuse them"
Thanks guys
I am glad you liked it. Material imbalances is a truly fascinating side of a chess game.
I'll try to add more of these if I have time. This semester at the university is going to be tougher than I thought!

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Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:43 pm
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Post Re: 3rd "If you can't beat them, confuse them"
I actually think the rook vs minor piece (especially bishop) is underrated in most cases. I would much rather be a pawn up than a exchange up for a pawn. But there are always some exceptions. Often in the endgame, a rook is superior to a bishop and a knight! (not two bishops, they just overpower your rook so easily that a 2 bishop vs rook endgame with pawns is almost always won).


Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:38 pm
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Post Re: 3rd "If you can't beat them, confuse them"
That's an interesting point gooeyjim. Sometimes I am even scared to give up a fianchetoed bishop for a rook although objectively it might be just winning. As I know in what kind of trouble my king could get because of the weakened squares around the monarch and one piece less to protect them.

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Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:57 am
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Post Re: 3rd "If you can't beat them, confuse them"
Geses cryst armis. There is an easy way to explain when exchange sacrifice works. It works when opponnet (and your rooks too most probably) rooks are inactive! And in the position you presented here they are and you also crush his pawn structure so of course it's nice.

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Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:33 pm
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Post Re: 3rd "If you can't beat them, confuse them"
The_Aggressor wrote:
Geses cryst armis. There is an easy way to explain when exchange sacrifice works. It works when opponnet (and your rooks too most probably) rooks are inactive! And in the position you presented here they are and you also crush his pawn structure so of course it's nice.


Well, I think Armis' explanation of why the exchange sacrifice works is excellent. He could've simply said that it was because his opponent's rooks were inactive and the pawn structure was bad, but his explanation was much better as it had more detail.

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Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:50 pm
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Post Re: 3rd "If you can't beat them, confuse them"
Certainly an interesting sacrifice and black seems to keep an excellent position but somehow I feel it might be hard to win. Personally I would probably try to keep the material balance equal since I feel black has some positional advantage because of the two bishops. After something like 1..Rg5 2.Rge1 maybe 2...Rc5 and white has to exchange the e5 pawn and even though he has Ne4 eliminating the two bishops we still have the superior minor piece bishop vs knight with pawns on both wings. So true we get one pawn for the exchange and shatter the pawn position on the queenside but I might ask also where were those pawns going and what good was that knight on c3?

That being said I am not saying the sacrifice is bad, I just probably would look for something else myself. Armis makes a great analysis of the position and indeed after the sacrifice I would most definately still prefer black who retains an excellent position but still I thought I'd give my 2 cents. A very interesting position and decision.

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Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:56 pm
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Post Re: 3rd "If you can't beat them, confuse them"
Thanks Zibbit
It's always nice to hear what someone of your caliber thinks
Honestly, I just couldn't hold myself of not playing Rxc3. It looked so fancy! :bom: And who doesn't like to win in a pretty way?
I agree with you and have to admit that I probably wouldn't go for it now, especially after your comment
Zibbit wrote:
So true we get one pawn for the exchange and shatter the pawn position on the queenside but I might ask also where were those pawns going and what good was that knight on c3?

thanks again

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Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:46 am
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Post Re: 3rd "If you can't beat them, confuse them"
Seems like if white plays "correct" after the sacrifice we will have something like this:

[url=http://www.chessvideos.tv/chess-diagram-generator.php?fen=2R1R1K1/P4P2/1P3P1b/8/p2Nb1p1/3p3p/1rp5/3k4][img]http://www.chessvideos.tv/bimg/3lgoynnooi80w.png[/img][/url]

This was after the moves:
1... Rxc3 2. bxc3 dxe5 3. Nf3+ Ke8 4. Nxe5 Bxa3+ 5. Kb1 (5.Kd2!? king might seem a bit silly on b1 in that endgame) 5...Bd5 6. Rgf1 Rg7

On the other hand, after my suggestion

1...Rg5 2.Rge1 (2.Rgf1 Ke8 3.exd6 Rd8) 2...Rc5!? 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Ne4 Bxe4 5.Rxe4 we have:

[url=http://www.chessvideos.tv/chess-diagram-generator.php?fen=4R1K1/P4PP1/1P5P/3RN3/pr3rp1/3pb2p/2pk4/8][img]http://www.chessvideos.tv/bimg/1mrlz05vwezo4.png[/img][/url]

So I would say both position pretty much black can't lose but I think I'd find it more promising to try and win the 2nd one compared to the first one. So that's basically my point.

I might add in the end that this post was marvellous from your part. The text, the analysis, the diagrams, everything. Much work you must have put into it and it shows. Also I think breaking down the barriers of being afraid of being down material is a big step towards improving in chess. So I really like your thought process in this position even though I probably would have chosen something else. Like I said, sometimes thats just a matter of taste.


Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:07 am
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Post Re: 3rd "If you can't beat them, confuse them"
*sigh*
i'll never have the gut to sac rook for knight/bishop
its kinda of hard to judge which piece is better at which position
i guess i'll get the point one day when i improve =)


Mon May 19, 2008 1:10 pm
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Post Re: 3rd "If you can't beat them, confuse them"
I love to sacrifice material, but in this one I must agree with Zibbit white had an hopeless position I would just try to milk it no need to sacrifice anything, altough the sacrifice obviously looks great there is not a clear win at all, so I would not do it without getting some other compensation than the bad pawns structure, but then again Iam really weak :)
One thing that really helps you understand chess a little better, and the relation position/material/coordination is the DVD "Kasparov My Story Part 1" When he is asked why he sacrifices pieces with no real material compensation (this when he was like 12!) And he answers that "as I see it, Iam not really sacrificing Iam increasing my advantage in this side of the board"! I wish I could think like that! Just recently found out about piece coordination, and Iam loving it! :)
Anyway basically I do not really like the sacrifice basically because Iam too weak technically to visualize a win after it, anyway Iam quite sure even if I was stronger I would find it easyer to win with the rook, I would try to increase the pressure and the space advantage, but great victory anyway! And congrats on the bold move! :)

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Mon May 19, 2008 2:04 pm
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