Unless you ban me, I'm not gone. I'm just not going to be watching any videos, but I'll be around the general discussion forum and I'll try not to be polemic next time .

RAU4ever, first off, I understand you don't like it that we must now pay to watch the vids but after all Greg has done for us to now have this massive rant for him being so "immoral" is quite uncalled for. Simple solution you just don't watch them anymore but why are you trying to put others off (which is what it looks like)!? Greg is probably the strongest player who does videos of this kind consistently which means he basically has monopoly power and if he wants a bit more out of it than handing out hours and hours of free chess lessons then that's fair enough! I have been reading some older posts and the number of times people have said that they have found Greg's videos helpful is huge but not surprising. I personally think his videos are very, very entertaining and many a time i have watched them just for pure enjoyment even if i don't get much out of it! Greg gave a very good point: if he is not having fun then the vids aren't fun to watch. This is very true and the past few vids before he started this payment structure. He felt forced by fans to make vids but his heart wasn't in them. i didn't find them anywhere near as interesting as the other vids when his trashed talked consisted of "20 winning games in a row baby! i'm gonna crush everyone! I just can't lose!!!"
On a side note, it does sadden me that i won't be able to watch the vids anymore since being a poor college student i obviously can't afford to spend money on stuff like this and i am quite frustrated that i can't watch them as well! I thank Greg for the hours of entertainment he has given me and everyone else and hope his own enjoyment picks up while he gets back into practice and sees good results again. Good luck sir!

I have to say that I share some of RAU's concerns, though not all of them.

Please keep in mind that I'm a huge Greg fan and that I plan on paying to see the new vids (though I haven't had time yet).

I support Greg's idea that he should be compensated- he has been very generous to have created 600+ videos that up until now, have been free. That said, I'm troubled by a few things:

1. I believe that the heart of this site, has been this body of free videos (not just Greg's though obviously his vids are a big part of the great free videos that we have here) that have attracted and kept many players hanging around (I'm one). With the demise of this resource, I fear that may adversely affect the site in future, I also understand that if Greg is to be compensated, then it's counterproductive to his business model to have that many free videos around competing with the new ones. I don't know if there is a solution- I fear there isn't.

2. This does put the site on track to being a full-on paid site (if nothing else, in the perceptions of many at the very least). I would probably lose interest in the site if it continues to follow that path.

3. Greg's plan may encourage other strong players to question whether they should be paid too- Zibbit, Steve, Frank, Katar and a few others are a big part of this site too and it would be a shame if that content became PPV as well. I have always thought of this as a community site- add money to the mix and the community suffers.

4. Also, the pricing, as RAU points out, is not competitive with other high-content chess sites like Chess.com. Pretty expensive really and particularly for old vids if they reflect the current pricing scheme.

5. Also, I don't know what Josh, Admin and Greg have worked out in terms of whether the site shares revenue with Greg, but if people are saving their bucks to watch his vids, that is likely going to negatively impact the number of premium signups. I suspect many people went premium to have download access to his vids.

6. The whole thing kinda feels at odds with the established character of the site up until now- this is purely an emotional argument, as I freely acknowledge.

I don't know where that leaves us- there is a demand and Greg is certainly entitled to be compensated but these concerns remain and though I look forward to his forthcoming videos, I really do have mixed feelings about the whole thing. Interested in all your feedback.

I don't see big drama between RAU and Curtains. Some of RAU's comments seem far fetched but I am sure he feels Curtains did something wrong so that's ok.

The difference - it seems - is Curtains feels his videos should be worth some money and RAU doesn't - or RAU doesn't think the videos are worth so much money. So if you (whoever) don't feel that way - don't use the credits, if you do - please use them.

As far as what this does to the site - I don't see difference - the rest of the new videos are still free - except the ones that were only avaiable for premium members.

I will acknowledge that my ad hominem for immorality is a bit far fetched and a bit uncalled for.


It is exactly this point that is my main concern. This is also the reason why i feel that he should not be compensated for his videos.

I find it really weird that the number of videos entitles Curtains to ask for money. When he started to make videos here, he knew he wouldn't get anything out of it. He knew this was a free site. He can't have had any expectations when he made all those videos. Apparantly it didn't matter. This is obvious, because he likes to make them too! He had fun while doing that.


Exactly the reason why this is so upsetting to me. At heart this is a free site, but because one strong player at this point in time doesn't feel like making more videos, we should just start to pay him? Absolutely not! Curtains is just like any other video poster. If he wants to make them, he can, if he doens't, then he can do something else. Just because he's the strongest player and because he's got a fangroup, doesn't mean he should be able to change the essence of this website.


And following my views explained above I disagree. It's better to keep the essence of this site than to get pay per view Curtains. If he wants to make more videos for his fans, he'll come back on his own accord. That can take a while, but so what? In the end though, pay per view Curtains means for the non-paying members on this site that there will be no Curtains indefinately. Or once every 50 days or something lol.


In fact it comes down to the question if you can apply supply and demand here. In this sense I can understand Curtains: if there are people out there that want to pay for videos, then why shouldn't he do this? But the point is that you can't use supply and demand like that. At the core it's not a question of is it worth it or not. Can you ask for money at all? In my view the answer should be a big noooooo. Chessvideos.tv is supposed to be a free site after all. etc. etc.


... yet they are unappealing for strong players, because they were made by lower class players. In this sense I've been uncanny in my use of two threads on this. If you're interested in my argumentation look for 'So, what's left?" in the general discussion forum.

my main concern with curtains using ppv is that he is charging for old videos, i understand that if there is a newcomer to the site, they are never going to pay for new vids if there are 700+ free ones they can watch for free. However i also understand the views of people that want the old vids to remain free. So i have a compromise i would like to purpose, is there anyway for admin to make curtains old videos free only to those members who had signed up before curtains announced that he was going to start charging for his videos. If this is possible would you be willing to do this curtains??

We are thinking of something like this, either making them free or extremely cheap for anyone who has been a member of the site for at least 6 months or so.

No, it's not. That's your idea of what this site is or should be. This didn't start with Curtains, it started when they restricted "the archive" of whatever they call it, the "training videos from the masters". The truth is there is a very clear push towards a certain business model here and it's coming from the owners. In my mind the mastermind behind this seems to be the mysterious figure "admin", who we know wasn't a chess player/enthusiast before he got involved with running the website. Now of course there's the issue of the costs associated with hosting a website but that only goes so far - lots of websites are able to sustain themselves purely on a donation basis. At the end of the day you can't criticize someone for taking something they own and trying to turn into a business or for asking money for something they created. No one has the right to do that.

$11.00 a month DOES seem a bit much... i was hoping for more like $3-$5 a month... (Between study materials and tournaments I already spend WAY too much on chess as it is!!! I'm gonna be homeless soon if i keep this up)

I also think that, if you're going to be charging with "credits" then all the videos should be the same price... i don't care if you're playing a GM or an IM or an A Player, what's entertaining is your commentary...

Like i said before, I'm willing to pay but make it affordable. (and also, you better not lose!)

Matt

All arguments I hear against curtains pay per view videos (arguments that I sympathise with anyway) only make me think that maybe curtains should be charging for his videos somewhere other than this website. There's no good argument as to why he shouldn't charge for his videos, as if people are willing to pay the rates that he has set, then why not. If you're not fine with paying for his videos because you think that they're not worth it, then that's fine. You can't say that he's tricking anyone into thinking his videos are anything other than what they are anyway; there are still free ones for people to see what they're getting.

So the argument comes back to one point, which is should curtains be charging for his videos here, at chessvideos, or is that going to have a negative impact on the site and the community going forward. Personally, I think that curtains should stay here, the place where he has gathered his following. I think as long as the admins here make sure that it doesn't become a situation where every other video is pay per view, so that the bulk of the website remains free, then that is the most important thing.

It might be an idea to separate pay per view videos from free ones somehow. I think this because if a new user comes to this website and bumps into a pay per view video in a random place, it might put them off using the website as they'll think that it's another website which charges for the majority of its content. If you have a section of the website devoted to pay per view content, then new users who aren't willing to spend money will simply stay away from that section and may even have a positive thought such as "Look at all this free content". It's just a thought.

you know, if the site marketed a little more effectively and got some more bodies in the door then I think that they'd be able to charge more reasonable rates for Greg's videos. There are THOUSANDS of chess enthusiasts in the US alone and hundreds if not thousands of tournaments every year... we know that there is definitely an audience for these videos and ideally CV.tv should be trying to make it broader.

just a thought...

FWIW I've decided to make every 10th video free (ie any video where the number ends in a 0). This means free video every 9-10 days for everyone, which is a lot better than the one uninspired video per 2-3 months that the site has been getting from me recently. I understand that not everyone has the money to pay for all of my videos, but I would like members of this site to still be able to enjoy some occasional new content.

Greg, I and I'm sure others appreciate that you're attempting to be considerate of all the viewers here and not just the paying ones. Thanks.

Every 10th free! That is excellent!

Okay, a lot of good discussion and even some compromise. I like the idea of Greg doing every 10th video free, that would be more than he has been posting recently anyway (as would be the case with every 50th I suppose), so the argument of having free videos is in a way answered.

I actually like the idea of PPV on this site, but with some reservations. I too stuck with CVTV due to the free content, but seeing how hard admin and the guys worked I quickly became a premium member. I am not rich, but when the effort comes from the heart (as it seems here) then I have no problem giving back in some way. Now, I'm not a big fan of other lecture sites as with them you don't get direct feedback with the author of a video like you do here. You can access Greg, Zibbit, Dennis and all the others and they will actually respond just as if you were their best friend - that is priceless, I don't care what anybody has to say, try and find that elsewhere.

As for me, I will keep making free content of tournament reports and of games of general interest. However, that being said, I can see a lot of sense in charging for a direct lesson to address specific question(s) of a viewer. For example, a viewer submits a game for review, or has requests specific help with a certain aspect of the game, he can send such a request to me (or perhaps Zibbit, Dennis and others if they wish to offer something similar). Then I can make a video to address that person directly instead of the general public by charging something like 20 credits - something in the neighborhood of $5 for the lesson - and by agreeing before the video is made the submitter will be notifed by PM when the video is up and they can cough up the credits. Now, 20 credits may seem like a lot, so the likely hood of another person watching it will be pretty slim (but thank you, if you do watch ).

I second the idea of a separate forum for PPV
Someone suggested a separate forum for the PPV stuff and I agree with this. As was mentioned in a previous post, when a new visitor stops by they are not going to think "Oh, another damned pay site", we can win them over with our charm and wit, and then they can opt for PPV or Premium membership. Simply post something nice on the main page "Check Out Our Affordable PPV" or something like that.

I second the idea for a Free Premium Membership with the Deluxe Credit Purchase
Another item brought forward was that the Premium Membership would be nice with a sizable purchase of credits. I feel that is a good idea.

As for costs and making comparisons to other sites, well, ICC is something like $5/mo and there you can get videos by top players and play on the Internet and watch things live like the US Chess League or the US Championship - pretty cool stuff and it is the only reason I pay for this site and for no others. Chess.com and Lectures, well, I am afraid that Greg is right on those, there are only so many videos that are going to be of interest and I am not one to watch a video of a Queen's Gambit if I am never going to play that line, so the selection gets small. Also, the videos are often pretty drab and scripted. At least here on CVTV people put up content because they have a genuine interest to do so, and the time to do so. I have friends who do the videos on the other sites, we'll be sitting around at a tournament and even though they produce videos, and are all titled players, people come up to me and say "Hey! I know you! You do the videos on CVTV, right?" It is hilarious as I am sitting at the same table as two titled players who post on other sites. With PPV on CVTV you can watch maybe one or two videos of your choosing one month and one or two the next, so you are only going to pay for the content you want to see, not just watch something because it is simple 'there' to be seen. CVTV will still have a lot of that for free.

I think the PPV will be a good idea for CVTV in the long-run, but some things need to be tweaked so that we keep the good things that brought us all here (free vids and numerous forums) while at the same time offering Premium Services, PPV etc so that some of the contributors can be renumerated if they desire.

I charge $35 per hour to give lessons, so a $5 charge to someone for a video geared towards that person doesn't seem outlandish, but I would hope that the main content of CVTV would not get muddied up with a mixture of free and PPV titles. It is already hard enough finding all the classic games or tournament reports that have been archived. Now that I mention this last bit, our video search engine will need another radio box to select or de-select the "PPV" content to be included in the search.

Yes, there is a lot of tweaking to be done, but all in all, I think it is a good thing for CVTV, not bad.