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thechesser
King
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:22 am Posts: 323 Location: United Stated
Rating Class: Class C (1400-1600)
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 a puzzle that goes back(this is a hint)
i've got a puzzle from a book and it is mate in 2 for white, it's really hard, i spent 10 minutes but didn't solve it, here it is. white to move and win in 2 hint: you better look back instead look forward  here is the answer: Hidden Text Below - [Show it] - [Hide it Again] 1.Qh2! there is no reply for black to stop mate on h8, remember, you CAN"T castle! look back to black's last move, nopawns can move backward, so it's not a pawn move, then it HAS to be a king or rook move, then from the rule, if kind or rook moved, then oppoment can't castle queen side if queen's rook moved, can't castle king side if king's rook moved, can't castle either side if king moved, that means black can't castle queen side, and any move black does allows white to mate the king
_________________ i will beat you... if you don't beat me.
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| Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:46 pm |
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snrao
Pawn
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:59 am Posts: 29
Rating: 1200
Rating Class: Novice (<1200)
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 Re: a puzzle that goes back(this is a hint)
Your premise that Black's Rook and King have already moved could not be right as any chess program gives Black's reply to Qh2 as 0-0-0. Black's pawn or a piece in a previous move could have been captured by White's King or Queen.
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| Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:21 am |
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thechesser
King
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:22 am Posts: 323 Location: United Stated
Rating Class: Class C (1400-1600)
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 Re: a puzzle that goes back(this is a hint)
interesting.... never thought of that... maybe i am wrong about this puzzle 
_________________ i will beat you... if you don't beat me.
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| Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:40 am |
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zeitnotakrobat
Rook
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:10 am Posts: 210 Location: Southern Germany
Rating: 2249
Rating Class: National Master
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 Re: a puzzle that goes back(this is a hint)
Well snrao,
white's queen or king might have captured something, but as white moves in the given position it was black to move last. The only possible moves take away the right to castle. The problem is a completely correct retro puzzle.
_________________ Veni, vidi, fleri!
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| Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:19 pm |
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snrao
Pawn
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:59 am Posts: 29
Rating: 1200
Rating Class: Novice (<1200)
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 Re: a puzzle that goes back(this is a hint)
YES. I am wrong. The problem is a beauty.
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| Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:50 pm |
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kamus
Site Moderator
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:39 pm Posts: 2457 Location: Maryland, USA
Rating: 1698
Rating Class: Class B (1600-1800)
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 Re: a puzzle that goes back(this is a hint)
Ingenious!
_________________ illigetimi non carborundum.
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| Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:51 pm |
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zeitnotakrobat
Rook
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:10 am Posts: 210 Location: Southern Germany
Rating: 2249
Rating Class: National Master
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 Re: a puzzle that goes back(this is a hint)
This one is also a nice retro puzzle, but a bit more difficult. TR Dawson, Falkirk Herald, 1914 [FEN "3k4/p2P2p1/1N1P1N2/1PpKpP2/2PpP3/3P4/3P4/8 w - - 0 1"] Mate in 2 
_________________ Veni, vidi, fleri!
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| Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:29 am |
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snrao
Pawn
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:59 am Posts: 29
Rating: 1200
Rating Class: Novice (<1200)
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 Re: a puzzle that goes back(this is a hint)
Being a 2 mover, White's only way could be 'en passant' and mate next move.. besides, Black's only last move should be pawn double step... but which pawn & which e.p.?... hmm... I am working on it...
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| Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:41 am |
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zeitnotakrobat
Rook
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:10 am Posts: 210 Location: Southern Germany
Rating: 2249
Rating Class: National Master
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 Re: a puzzle that goes back(this is a hint)
So, you only have to proof which one had to move. It's not that difficult. A little hint below, of course not the solution Hidden Text Below - [Show it] - [Hide it Again] Each position in chess problems has to be correct. This means it must be possible to achieve it by legal moves from the starting position.
_________________ Veni, vidi, fleri!
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| Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:45 pm |
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snrao
Pawn
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:59 am Posts: 29
Rating: 1200
Rating Class: Novice (<1200)
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 Re: a puzzle that goes back(this is a hint)
Black's Queen Bishop at f8 has two ways to come out... e7 and g7. Since g7 pawn is at starting position, e7 pawn must have moved for the bishop to come out and die. Had it moved only one step earlier and made another step now, White could not capture it by e.p. Hence it was the other pawn which made two moves, i.e., c7 to c5. So, the key must be, 1. b5xc6 & mate next move. My conclusion must be right but logic could be wrong. But how on earth this position could be reached? Can we construct the game with legal moves from either side? Can we construct retro positions and check its legitimacy with any software? No chess software either commercial or non-commercial could solve such retro problems. Does it mean humans are still superior to computers?
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| Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:09 am |
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kamus
Site Moderator
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:39 pm Posts: 2457 Location: Maryland, USA
Rating: 1698
Rating Class: Class B (1600-1800)
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 Re: a puzzle that goes back(this is a hint)
I believe there is problem-solving software that deals with retro puzzles: Natch.
_________________ illigetimi non carborundum.
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| Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:58 am |
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zeitnotakrobat
Rook
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:10 am Posts: 210 Location: Southern Germany
Rating: 2249
Rating Class: National Master
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 Re: a puzzle that goes back(this is a hint)
Well snrao, you are right. The proof is really simple: If you look at white's pawns and count the number of black pieces they must have taken to reach the actual position the number is ten. Counting the black pieces on the board is six. Therefore all missing black pieces have been taken by white's pawns and for the black bishop on f8 to be taken it must have been outside the pawn chain.
_________________ Veni, vidi, fleri!
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| Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:01 pm |
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snrao
Pawn
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:59 am Posts: 29
Rating: 1200
Rating Class: Novice (<1200)
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 Re: a puzzle that goes back(this is a hint)
Just as I suspected. I presumed that the Black Bishop came out of the original square and exchanged which in fact has to be supported by proof given by zeitnotakrobat.
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| Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:27 am |
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