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Fox Malkovich 
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King

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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
28. Kg3

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Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:17 pm
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
28...Rg6+

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Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:23 am
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
29. Kh3 - I offer a draw.

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Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:25 am
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
Done! I feel like you had all the winning chances here. As you read my hidden posts now, you'll realize how much this game was positional torture for me. Thanks very much for the game- I'm looking forward to reading your Malkovich comments. :) I'm also curious as to what others thought about this game- that is, if anyone was still following it. Pobble?

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Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:37 am
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
kamus wrote:
Done! I feel like you had all the winning chances here. As you read my hidden posts now, you'll realize how much this game was positional torture for me. Thanks very much for the game- I'm looking forward to reading your Malkovich comments. :) I'm also curious as to what others thought about this game- that is, if anyone was still following it. Pobble?


GG!

Yes, I didn't expect you to have any fun, but you hung in there, didn't panic, etc. I'll go through it with an engine some other day, but feel free to let me know if we overlooked something big (something tells me that's very likely). Oh, and my comments are not as entertaining as yours, sorry. :p I only ramble a lot and lament missing a bunch of ideas.

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Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:09 am
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
Thanks guys for the entertainment!

Once the ending was reached, as I told Josh - I thought it was dynamically level. Kamus could have gone for a blockading strategy early on, as it was pretty dangerous for white to push his pawns too ambitiously. Think of the Ivanchuk idea in the Grunfeld >e5,d5.>Nd6, or the some Nimzo lines. Simply going for piece activity is not a plan - sorry Kamus.

In the final position, I think Fox has an edge. White should aim to exchange a pair of rooks, then transfer the king to the centre. R+B vs R+N is generally seen as a material advantage for the side with the bishop. So starting by the ' threat ' of doubling on the g-file. This would be a slow grind but white can never lose.

Such endings tend to be played in ' stages ', I doubt using a computer would help except for practice games to get a feel and discover the odd cheap shot. I feel that you both were looking for something concrete all the time and getting frustrated at the lack of something tangible. This is just not that type of ending.

If either of you are interested and have the time, I would suggest taking a look at Endgame Strategy by Shereshevsky.


Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:16 pm
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
Fox wrote:
Yes, I didn't expect you to have any fun, but you hung in there, didn't panic, ....


Actually I spent most of the game in a sort of low level panic!

Pobble, thanks, as always for your thoughts on the game. Obviously, I have a lot to learn about not only endings, middlegames and openings but also, finding a plan, IQP, transpositions out of my repertoire and probably a lot of other stuff too.

I feel lucky to have emerged relatively unscathed. I would hate to meet Fox OTB- I'm pretty sure he would own me pretty quickly. The only reason I managed to find moves that didn't lose was because I had days to analyze each position. Each position probably took at least a hour and some were 2-3 hrs each. I don't think I've ever analyzed a game that much before.

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Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:43 pm
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
Yeah, from the beginning I wasn't quite satisfied. I love the lines I play against the French and the Monte Carlo is not one of them. It's also not nearly as deadly as the Panow. I should've gone full-on bore, Nf3 and then Reti it up. Maybe in the rematch of the rematch!

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Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:40 pm
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
To be honest, my evaluation of the ending was that after 17 fxe3 white should have a strategically won game. The bishop is much stronger than the knight which has not outpost and no good squares. I also thought that white can use his half-open files better (and quicker) than black.
I was quite surprised to see how the game continued. Fox followed a bad plan and played too impatient.
I think already 18 Kf2 isn't the best. I always learnt that in an endgame forces should be activated is descending strength. That means to me 18 Rb1 looks right. As black's only idea to get active is to play c5 or f5, I would place a rook on the 5th rank and try to force black to do pawn moves to create targets.
Also, it was far too early when Fox moved his pawns. Activation of the pieces is the first thing to do. There is another rule that says, when your pieces are placed optimal, then change the pawn structure. But again the Rc1 stayed there until the end of the game...

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Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:45 am
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
zeitnotakrobat wrote:
To be honest, my evaluation of the ending was that after 17 fxe3 white should have a strategically won game. The bishop is much stronger than the knight which has not outpost and no good squares. I also thought that white can use his half-open files better (and quicker) than black.
I was quite surprised to see how the game continued. Fox followed a bad plan and played too impatient.
I think already 18 Kf2 isn't the best. I always learnt that in an endgame forces should be activated is descending strength. That means to me 18 Rb1 looks right. As black's only idea to get active is to play c5 or f5, I would place a rook on the 5th rank and try to force black to do pawn moves to create targets.
Also, it was far too early when Fox moved his pawns. Activation of the pieces is the first thing to do. There is another rule that says, when your pieces are placed optimal, then change the pawn structure. But again the Rc1 stayed there until the end of the game...

Genius comment. FYI descending strength means the King is 3.5 or 4 in an endgame without queens, so (in general) the King should be activated after rooks but before a minor piece.

Kamus deserves huge credit for his clever idea of inducing white pawns to f5 and d5 with a knight blockade on e5 (ie, answering 28.f5 c5 29.d5 Nc6-e5!).

How about a replayer of the entire game?

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Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:05 am
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
Here's a replayer:



@zeitnot A few thoughts regarding your comment:

- I also thought it was strategically winning after kamus took on e3, but after analysing it, I have my doubts if it is indeed enough for a win. In fact, I'm pretty sure Black can draw with not too many difficulties despite the centre.
- This leads me to my next conclusion (which I also voiced during the game) - I don't think the bishop is stronger than the knight in the endgame we got. Black can play around the bishop and render him ineffective.
- I don't see what White gains by playing 19. Rb1 and activating it on the fifth rank (I obviously looked at it during the game). You cite a lot of "rules of thumb", but anaysis is very concrete, I'm afraid. Please demonstrate.

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Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:23 am
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
ok, so after move 18 we do have a quiet position and this makes it hard to give useful variations because there is nothing forced. I hope that explaining my thoughts helps

If I had to play the position I would try to activate my pieces to the maximum while maintaining control, simply build up and increase pressure, then decide on the pawn structure depending on black's defensive setup. At the moment black has no counterplay at all, thus I do have some time.
Let's say I start with 19 Rb1. My intention is to force first a pawn move on the queenside, so let black be cooperative and play 19... b6. I go Rb5 reasoning that it's the most active place for it. It suppresses all black's pawn levers (c5, f5), but additionally it is very flexible, because it can be lifted to the kingside, where I want to force a pawn move as well. Maybe this can be achieved by doubling on the g-file or threatening to concentrate forces against f7 (Bc4, Rf5).

This is only a first step, but for me it is enough to go for Rb1.
Probably, this isn't concrete enough for your taste. When I find the time I'll play out the position against an engine to give some variations.

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Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:22 pm
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
zeitnotakrobat wrote:
This is only a first step, but for me it is enough to go for Rb1.
Probably, this isn't concrete enough for your taste. When I find the time I'll play out the position against an engine to give some variations.


I don't think this is a matter of taste, really. If you call one plan "bad" and suggest a different one that you deem better, you have to provide a sample line. Reason being that one plan was realised and played out in the game while the other was only hinted at with one move and a vague continuation. One can easily call any plan "winning" or "losing" if he/she didn't have to prove it.

Hope you understand my reasoning, and I appreciate your input!

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Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:03 pm
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
This is not a middlegame where the white pawn centre would be a tangible advantage. If anything, white has the worse pawn structure for the endgame stage, though this does confer better mobility for his pieces. Schematic thinking is key.


Thu May 01, 2014 6:15 am
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Post Re: Fox Malkovich
GG guys, hard to believe that it was only 20 odd moves since it's been going so long! In my imagination it was like move 134 or something :p

Very interesting that it turned out a draw. I was so sure white must be crushing, it actually shows I need to reconsider these kinds of positions! So thanks for that :)


Thu May 01, 2014 10:55 pm
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