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gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33] 
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Post gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
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Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:46 am
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
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Last edited by KingsBlade on Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:10 pm
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
I'm sorry, you're just absolutely wrong about the Dragon. The Yugoslav DOES NOT highly favour white. How can you even state that while the fundamental starting position of the Bc4-line hasn't even been reached? I understand you can't cover that in your video, but I'd like you to state your variations on which you base this. Here, or perhaps in that other thread (about why someone would choose the real Dragon over the acc. dragon) if you like that better.

EDIT: ofcours I may run into the judgement of a much better player, a much younger one aswell by the sound of things, but seeing your profile I don't think that's entirely the case, so... I think I won't change my statement just yet.

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And seeing the beauty of the Dragon-variation, the cosmos re-aligned its stars and immortalised it. For even now, we call that constellation the Dragon constellation.

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Last edited by RAU4ever on Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:52 pm
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
KingsBlade wrote:
Thanks gooeyjim!

Well done. I will watch this video many, many times. You sure know your dragons!

KB :D


Thanks, although I personally think tactics and strategy are the way to go for you.


Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:54 pm
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
RAU4ever wrote:
I'm sorry, you're just absolutely wrong about the Dragon. The Yugoslav DOES NOT highly favour white. How can you even state that while the fundamental starting position of the Bc4-line hasn't even been reached? I understand you can't cover that in your video, but I'd like you to state your variations on which you base this. Here, or perhaps in that other thread (about why someone would choose the real Dragon over the acc. dragon) if you like that better.


Hmm? Now really. How does it not favor white? Here are my reasons
1. The Yugoslav Attack is not winning for white, of course but black has to play VERY ACCURATELY in order not to be dead.
2. Chessgames.com opening says that white wins 40% of the time, while black only wins 20% of the time
3. Watch my other video on the sicilian
4. Why not be more flexible and play the Acc Dragon. If the Yugoslav attack was that good for black, why to accerelated dragon players never go into it when they have the choice?

About the Bc4-line? What about that? I cannot understand what you are saying.


Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:58 pm
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
The starting position on the Bc4 line, which you showed, only starts after Ne5, Bb3, h4. Black has then 3 options on dealing with this: 12...Qa5, 12...h5 and 12...Nc4. You're saying that all 3 are highly favouring white, now that's a thing to say!

If you want to battle with numbers, here's one for you: the variation with ...h5 gives only a 51% score in Chessbase 9. Might I point out that the Maroczy gets 57% atleast?

You keep telling everyone how accurate black has to play in the Yugoslav. I haven't been mated for years in the Yugoslav. Mating black is not easy at all! Obviously I have been destroyed aswell, but that was earlier. As in all variations, you need to know what you're doing. And if you're getting an attack on your king, you'd better know how to defend it.

Why players don't change back from the accelerated dragon to the normal dragon is obvious: Nf6 is more accurate as it stops the Maroczy. That way black can always go into his beloved dragon instead of praying white doesn't play c4.

Instead of going to study, I'll watch your other video. I haven't been around too long, so I haven't watched that yet.

The dragon has been around for nearly a hundred years, surely all those GMs weren't stupid when they played it?

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And seeing the beauty of the Dragon-variation, the cosmos re-aligned its stars and immortalised it. For even now, we call that constellation the Dragon constellation.

Dutch elo: 2202
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Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:26 pm
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
Watch my video Dealing with the Sicilian
Korchnoi got crushed in the Yugoslav.
Mated is not that likely; but getting a lost position is likely. Those GMs weren't stupid, but why do people play the accerelated dragon? TO AVOID THE YUGOSLAV!


Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:37 pm
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
Well done, you found a model game by white. Black obviously made some poor moves, Rc5 for example, but probably earlier aswell. Now, I don't have my theory book on me, but let me guess that it says somewhere: 'don't play x, cause then you'll be finished like Korchnoi.' Moreover, this is not exactly up to date theory, you took a game from 1974. It might very well be that the theory wasn't as clear cut back then as it is now. I already acknowledged that you need to know what to do to defend your king.

The variation I play is with ...h5, so I actually don't know too much about the variations Korchnoi used. I have looked at it, but decided ...h5 was better. Chessbase 9 shows I'm right.

Why do people play the normal dragon? TO AVOID THE MAROCZY :P. Why do people play 1. d4? TO AVOID THE OPEN GAMES. No, I only wanted to show you that it's not saying anything if some people avoid certain lines, that's just a matter of taste. However, you try to say that because some people avoid it, it must be bad. That argument is flawed.

Let's be constructive, so we can all learn things from this discussion. That's ofcours the reason for this great site. What frightens you so much after black plays ...h5?

btw, I realised I have been stupid by suggesting that 3rd line 12...Qa5, which ofcours has to be played before Rc8, as the whole idea is to play Rfc8...

_________________
And seeing the beauty of the Dragon-variation, the cosmos re-aligned its stars and immortalised it. For even now, we call that constellation the Dragon constellation.

Dutch elo: 2202
FIDE: 2233


Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:55 pm
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
I agree with RAU4ever. It's not fair to say that the Yugoslav gives white a big plus. Well he sure has some kind of advantage, but that's the case in almost every opening. The statistics on http://www.chessgames.com really don't mean that much. Checking out the stats for the Sicilian Defence on the same website, it actually says that black wins more games than white does. So does it mean that by playing the sicilian, white is actually at a disadvantage...? Well of course not. According to what I know, the reason some people avoid the Yugoslav as black is not necessarily that they are afraid to lose but rather just that they don't like unclear and double-edged lines the same way some people wish to avoid certain lines like the Benoni and the Marshall Gambit. Fans of the Accelerated Dragon like it mostly because this line is more flexible (for example, it holds the d-pawn and the f8 knight in reserve) and features a positional rather than tactical style of play. From what I have read in the textbooks, I am pretty sure that lots of people choose to avoid the Accelerated Dragon, as RAU4ever stated earlier, because they don't want to play against the Maroczy Bind, which give white a strong grip on the center. Sure there are cases in which black loses badly in the Yugoslav and scores brilliantly in the Accelerated Dragon, but the result of a game really depends on the players' strengths for the most part. The evaluation of an opening shouldn't be made just based upon a few wins or losses--availability heuristics usually isn't very helpful in making an accurate judgment. The Yugoslav does favor white slightly, but if you just say that the it gives white a big advantage and thus black should try to avoid it, hmmm well, that just seems a little bit premature and I'm sure most grandmasters would not agree with you, as Kasparov always speaks about opening theories: there are always lots of amazing ideas out there yet to be discovered and it's very hard to draw definite conclusions about a particular opening.


Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:11 am
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
Bystanderz wrote:
I agree with RAU4ever. It's not fair to say that the Yugoslav gives white a big plus. Well he sure has some kind of advantage, but that's the case in almost every opening. The statistics on http://www.chessgames.com really don't mean that much. Checking out the stats for the Sicilian Defence on the same website, it actually says that black wins more games than white does. So does it mean that by playing the sicilian, white is actually at a disadvantage...? Well of course not. According to what I know, the reason some people avoid the Yugoslav as black is not necessarily that they are afraid to lose but rather just that they don't like unclear and double-edged lines the same way some people wish to avoid certain lines like the Benoni and the Marshall Gambit. Fans of the Accelerated Dragon like it mostly because this line is more flexible (for example, it holds the d-pawn and the f8 knight in reserve) and features a positional rather than tactical style of play. From what I have read in the textbooks, I am pretty sure that lots of people choose to avoid the Accelerated Dragon, as RAU4ever stated earlier, because they don't want to play against the Maroczy Bind, which give white a strong grip on the center. Sure there are cases in which black loses badly in the Yugoslav and scores brilliantly in the Accelerated Dragon, but the result of a game really depends on the players' strengths for the most part. The evaluation of an opening shouldn't be made just based upon a few wins or losses--availability heuristics usually isn't very helpful in making an accurate judgment. The Yugoslav does favor white slightly, but if you just say that the it gives white a big advantage and thus black should try to avoid it, hmmm well, that just seems a little bit premature and I'm sure most grandmasters would not agree with you, as Kasparov always speaks about opening theories: there are always lots of amazing ideas out there yet to be discovered and it's very hard to draw definite conclusions about a particular opening.


The Yugoslav Attack is not winning for white... but white does get a pretty big plus to me... it just seems so hard to defend with the black pieces. Some say it's better than the marocy bind, and that's their taste, of highly tactical play,but if you will play the yugoslav attack, that's fine. To me, the yugoslav is highly favorable for white, but I don't mind different opoinons. If the marocy bind is so good for white, then why doesn't white play it against every accerelated dragon?
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Thu May 01, 2008 12:55 pm
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
gooeyjim wrote:

If the marocy bind is so good for white, then why doesn't white play it against every accerelated dragon?


The same reason why every white player doesn't play the Yugoslav Attack against the Dragon Proper. It doesn't fit some player's taste.

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Thu May 01, 2008 2:34 pm
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
gooeyjim wrote:
Bystanderz wrote:
I agree with RAU4ever. It's not fair to say that the Yugoslav gives white a big plus. Well he sure has some kind of advantage, but that's the case in almost every opening. The statistics on http://www.chessgames.com really don't mean that much. Checking out the stats for the Sicilian Defence on the same website, it actually says that black wins more games than white does. So does it mean that by playing the sicilian, white is actually at a disadvantage...? Well of course not. According to what I know, the reason some people avoid the Yugoslav as black is not necessarily that they are afraid to lose but rather just that they don't like unclear and double-edged lines the same way some people wish to avoid certain lines like the Benoni and the Marshall Gambit. Fans of the Accelerated Dragon like it mostly because this line is more flexible (for example, it holds the d-pawn and the f8 knight in reserve) and features a positional rather than tactical style of play. From what I have read in the textbooks, I am pretty sure that lots of people choose to avoid the Accelerated Dragon, as RAU4ever stated earlier, because they don't want to play against the Maroczy Bind, which give white a strong grip on the center. Sure there are cases in which black loses badly in the Yugoslav and scores brilliantly in the Accelerated Dragon, but the result of a game really depends on the players' strengths for the most part. The evaluation of an opening shouldn't be made just based upon a few wins or losses--availability heuristics usually isn't very helpful in making an accurate judgment. The Yugoslav does favor white slightly, but if you just say that the it gives white a big advantage and thus black should try to avoid it, hmmm well, that just seems a little bit premature and I'm sure most grandmasters would not agree with you, as Kasparov always speaks about opening theories: there are always lots of amazing ideas out there yet to be discovered and it's very hard to draw definite conclusions about a particular opening.


The Yugoslav Attack is not winning for white... but white does get a pretty big plus to me... it just seems so hard to defend with the black pieces. Some say it's better than the marocy bind, and that's their taste, of highly tactical play, but if you will play the yugoslav attack, that's fine. To me, the yugoslav is highly favorable for white, but I don't mind different opoinons. If the marocy bind is so good for white, then why doesn't white play it against every accerelated dragon?


Let me first say that this reply is not meant to nag my point home. I do want to say though that it's simply impossible that an opening gives a big plus to one player, while no plus to another. You have to assess a position objectively. Again I'd like to invite you to do that with me. The problematic square of the Dragon are h7 and h8. I know you focus your ideas on the free h4-h5 break and yes those are often very critical. But black has so many defensive resources! The Bg7, Nf6 tandem work really great and there are other ideas like ...fxg6 and ...Rf7 to defend the h7 square, or atleast creating a flightsquare for the king. And from experience aswell as from theory I know that my petline (blocking the h5 break with my own ...h5) gives black an attack that's almost always quicker than white's attack.

Objectively, you are overvalueing white's attack. I think you're quite a positional player and therefore I think it's not so strange you fear such attacks comming at you. I on the other hand fear the Maroczy and especially the endgames that they lead to. But... I've recently switched to the Acc. Dragon aswell, just to learn to play more positionally (I will switch back to the Yugoslav though, if someone plays Bc4 :D). I think you and especially Curtains helped me over my own fear, perhaps I can help you with your fear for the Yugoslav? It might come in usefull someday?

Anyway, to get back to your argument, Theriot again showed that it's flawed. But... if you still believe in it: why is it that 9. 0-0-0 in the Dragon is played almost always and is concidered critical nowadays instead of the Yugoslav :P? Let's not use these anymore, we can think up millions of them.

And let's not forget! Apart from the statement that got so many criticism from me and some others, it's still a great video and helpfull to the site.

_________________
And seeing the beauty of the Dragon-variation, the cosmos re-aligned its stars and immortalised it. For even now, we call that constellation the Dragon constellation.

Dutch elo: 2202
FIDE: 2233


Sat May 03, 2008 2:56 pm
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
RAU4ever wrote:
gooeyjim wrote:
Bystanderz wrote:
I agree with RAU4ever. It's not fair to say that the Yugoslav gives white a big plus. Well he sure has some kind of advantage, but that's the case in almost every opening. The statistics on http://www.chessgames.com really don't mean that much. Checking out the stats for the Sicilian Defence on the same website, it actually says that black wins more games than white does. So does it mean that by playing the sicilian, white is actually at a disadvantage...? Well of course not. According to what I know, the reason some people avoid the Yugoslav as black is not necessarily that they are afraid to lose but rather just that they don't like unclear and double-edged lines the same way some people wish to avoid certain lines like the Benoni and the Marshall Gambit. Fans of the Accelerated Dragon like it mostly because this line is more flexible (for example, it holds the d-pawn and the f8 knight in reserve) and features a positional rather than tactical style of play. From what I have read in the textbooks, I am pretty sure that lots of people choose to avoid the Accelerated Dragon, as RAU4ever stated earlier, because they don't want to play against the Maroczy Bind, which give white a strong grip on the center. Sure there are cases in which black loses badly in the Yugoslav and scores brilliantly in the Accelerated Dragon, but the result of a game really depends on the players' strengths for the most part. The evaluation of an opening shouldn't be made just based upon a few wins or losses--availability heuristics usually isn't very helpful in making an accurate judgment. The Yugoslav does favor white slightly, but if you just say that the it gives white a big advantage and thus black should try to avoid it, hmmm well, that just seems a little bit premature and I'm sure most grandmasters would not agree with you, as Kasparov always speaks about opening theories: there are always lots of amazing ideas out there yet to be discovered and it's very hard to draw definite conclusions about a particular opening.


The Yugoslav Attack is not winning for white... but white does get a pretty big plus to me... it just seems so hard to defend with the black pieces. Some say it's better than the marocy bind, and that's their taste, of highly tactical play, but if you will play the yugoslav attack, that's fine. To me, the yugoslav is highly favorable for white, but I don't mind different opoinons. If the marocy bind is so good for white, then why doesn't white play it against every accerelated dragon?


Let me first say that this reply is not meant to nag my point home. I do want to say though that it's simply impossible that an opening gives a big plus to one player, while no plus to another. You have to assess a position objectively. Again I'd like to invite you to do that with me. The problematic square of the Dragon are h7 and h8. I know you focus your ideas on the free h4-h5 break and yes those are often very critical. But black has so many defensive resources! The Bg7, Nf6 tandem work really great and there are other ideas like ...fxg6 and ...Rf7 to defend the h7 square, or atleast creating a flightsquare for the king. And from experience aswell as from theory I know that my petline (blocking the h5 break with my own ...h5) gives black an attack that's almost always quicker than white's attack.

Objectively, you are overvalueing white's attack. I think you're quite a positional player and therefore I think it's not so strange you fear such attacks comming at you. I on the other hand fear the Maroczy and especially the endgames that they lead to. But... I've recently switched to the Acc. Dragon aswell, just to learn to play more positionally (I will switch back to the Yugoslav though, if someone plays Bc4 :D). I think you and especially Curtains helped me over my own fear, perhaps I can help you with your fear for the Yugoslav? It might come in usefull someday?

Anyway, to get back to your argument, Theriot again showed that it's flawed. But... if you still believe in it: why is it that 9. 0-0-0 in the Dragon is played almost always and is concidered critical nowadays instead of the Yugoslav :P? Let's not use these anymore, we can think up millions of them.

And let's not forget! Apart from the statement that got so many criticism from me and some others, it's still a great video and helpfull to the site.


I probably been overvalueing white's position in the yugoslav attack. White definately has a plus but I never have tried out those ideas, and everytime I play with the black pieces and go d6, my opponents blast me into a yugoslav attack. In the tournament the Holidays Open (toronto 2007) I played black against 3 2000's and they ALL tried to play the yugoslav attack. That's scary, considering I didn't know the anti-yugoslav attack and I got crushed! that's why I'm scared of the yugoslav attack. I'm not very positional. (all players playing the sicilian are tactics tactics tactics!)
P.S. :shock: You would play 7. d6? that just loses a tempo! Accerlated dragon players have two options, the positional Qa5 or the tactical 0-0 where black is a tempo up in the yugoslav attack. playing 7. d6 is quite poor.


Sat May 03, 2008 4:15 pm
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
Perhaps it's an idea to analyse one of those Toronto games? Maybe as part of a future analysis exchange? Oh well, it's not such a big deal: it's a choice of which opening you want to play. I just have the philosophy that it's a good thing to have a big, big choice of possible structures, enabling you to play for a draw in some games and for a win in others. The Dragon Proper is definately my strongest weapon for playing for a win with black, and I hope the Acc. Dragon will become my main drawing opening.

I'd play d6 in the acc. Dragon, as it's got the merits of transposing into the Yugoslav, while disabling the 0-0-0 lines of the Dragon Proper. I'm not scared of those, but I feel really good in the Yugoslav, while there are some 0-0-0 lines that I would rather avoid with black (especially the Kb1 line). 0-0 obviously will be better for theoretical reasons; practically, though, transposing wouldn't be so bad either. But, following my own philosophy, you can be sure I will learn to play the real acc. Dragon aswell :D.

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And seeing the beauty of the Dragon-variation, the cosmos re-aligned its stars and immortalised it. For even now, we call that constellation the Dragon constellation.

Dutch elo: 2202
FIDE: 2233


Sun May 04, 2008 3:34 am
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Post Re: gooeyjim - The Sicilian Dragons for Black [12:33]
@gooeyjim
I would have to say this,
1. The Dragon is a ultra-sharp opening where one mistake by either side can be fatal. Theory abounds in the Yugoslav and 9. 0-0-0 lines. Currently it seems that 9. Bc4, Black is fully equal with 12... h5 and is probably slightly worse against 9. 0-0-0 d5! 10. ed nxd 11. nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4! in the Experts vs Sicilian line.

2. If you don't like ultra sharp variations like this or the Grunfeld, KID, ...d5 Nimzo, then don't play them and choose less sharp alternatives. The Accelerated Dragon is fully playable, but just like the Yugoslav is to everyones tastes, neither is the Maroczy. Maybe Black is equal, but some people don't like it. Maybe Black is equal in the Yugoslav but some people don't like it.

3. Also Black can get away with stuff like 6... a6 7... h5 8... Nbd7 and only be slightly worse according to leading GM's. Many also say that White may get a slight advantage but probably it is equal. 9. 0-0-0 is better for White perhaps positionally IF he knows 20 moves of theory and plans.


Sun May 04, 2008 10:32 am
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