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curtains - L345: W vs Orange [GM] [31:54] 
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Knight

Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:16 am
Posts: 30
Post Re: curtains - L345: W vs Orange [GM] [31:54]
I liked the poker thing, I agree though that preflop is terribad. I know who mig is but not have any reads on him, the only benefit of calling pre is if you think mig is squeezing a lot on button but I don't think hes doing it too much light w/ these stacks so definitely just 3-bet pre so you don't get yourself in this spot where you don't know what to do. If are stack was less than like 30BBs I think flatting pre is better or if the opening raiser is in a later position


Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:43 pm
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Knight

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:39 pm
Posts: 78
Rating Class: Class B (1600-1800)
Post Re: curtains - L345: W vs Orange [GM] [31:54]
I agree with you preflop but I think checking is the best play postflop

I know mig is a very good player, and so I'd assume he's stabbing with anything that can't improve on later streets, and any strongish draw, plus most of his pairs.

He maybe checks behind if he has weakish showdown equity or a backdoor or gutshot+middle pair or something, but tournament players are pretty stab-happy in general.

Mig has the widest range, and so getting money in the pot from him is the most important (UTG probably already decided to either give up or stack off).

Basically, Mig won't both check behind and catch up on the turn often enough to merit betting in my opinion.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:24 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L345: W vs Orange [GM] [31:54]
Ok I gotta run in a second but one point is even if he checks with not much hand, there are so many cards that can come that don't beat you but can completely freeze you and put you in very bad situations against any action. Any 4 straight card is quite unpleasant, and obv any ace is big disaster, in a pot that is already reasonably sized 1/4th of current stack, not to mention that you can get played with by worse hands by betting now. Also if some QQ or JJ from UTG is ready to goto war or something, lots of kill cards can come to lose that action.

Also it doesn't make sense that some good player should bet every time against two opponents in a spot like that when his hand has no chance to improve, especially since it's obvious by the way everyone is analyzing the hand, that we should be frequently attempting to check raise said player. I feel like too often people say "this dude is good, so they will always do this here with crap hands", and then they suggest completely exploiting this play and assuming that the "good" opponent will always just allow it. I don't think an auto-bet here against two players in a raised pot, assuming they check almost always (which seems to be what a lot of people think is the best way to play) is going to be correct.

Also I know you aren't saying this but the logic of calling with KK PF because people will play too perfectly if you raise (which I don't believe is at all true against these random people), probably means that you should be reraising looser, including hands like KK, and not instead calling with your top hands. Anyway I'm in rush so writing this fast, hope I made thoughts clear.



** late edit: Seems that the whole idea of checking is this:

1. We are trying to get one bet from mig (which should be somewhere in the range of 50-80% of the pot I suspect)

Instead of:

2. Trying to simply win the pot right away.

I think that based on all the bad things that can happen if we check on this board and he checks behind, it's not worth it to go for an extra 1800 chips or so. (also some good things can happen when we bet that might not happen when we check).

Anyway I dislike the preflop play more, because it's good to sometimes check postflop with a strong hand like this, although I think it's much more important in heads up pots as opposed to 3-way, and so I'd prefer to just bet here and keep it simple in a pot that represents 25% of our stack, with so many annoying cards possible on the turn.

Should all come down to exactly how confident that he is going to bet such a large % of the time with weak hands he would fold if we simply bet out. I don't believe I would be that confident with almost any opponent.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:49 pm
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Pawn

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:36 am
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Rating: 1400
Rating Class: Class C (1400-1600)
Post Re: curtains - L345: W vs Orange [GM] [31:54]
figrock wrote:
Thanx for the post..! I got to see a masterpiece of an opening, but unfortunately you did not capitalize. You started the game not focused talking about poker and got into trouble. You admitted then it was time to concentrate. With three minutes remaining, you showed brilliant play and was up! Then, exactly what you said in the game before with kunifax; you got over confident, self destructed, and lost the game! You basically beat yourself. I feel that your Elo rating would be about 100 points higher or more if you could please Greg, take your games more seriously. I honestly want whats best for you, cause you have helped us in so many ways. We all understand that you are a chessstud and could kick all of all butts; however, staying more focused during your games will not only be more beneficial for us to see such brilliant masterpieces unfold... BUT, you can feel proud in the fact that your Elo rating would sore to new heights! WE ALL LOVE YOU, GREG... Keep up the helpful videos!


It's only a game, and the rating is just a number. I don't think he loses sleep over whether or not he wins these games.


Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:08 pm
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Knight

Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:09 pm
Posts: 37
Post Re: curtains - L345: W vs Orange [GM] [31:54]
Zibbit wrote:
This whole line looks convincing for white. I have some stuff on it in "Play 1...Nc6" By C.Wisniewski.

1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.Be2 0-0-0 which transposes to Greg's game.

12.0-0!? is said to be most dangerous and there doesn't seem to be anything convincing for black after it, he is probably just struggling for a draw.

Wisniewski gives one game with 12...Rxd4 as played in this game and he was just in trouble there.
13.Qa4! Qxe2 14.Qxa7 Qxb2 15.Na3 Rd3 16.Qa8+ Kd7 and now he says white should have played 17.Nb5! when it seems black is in trouble.

He prefers 12...Qxd4 it seems and after 13.Qa4 wants to play 13...e6 which is supposed to be an improvement on G.Shahade-M.Fierro Baquero, Paget Parish 2001 where black was slaughtered. Black seems he might survive but white despite being pawn down has all the play with a strong bishop and good possibilites for a successful attack on the Q-side.

Good game Greg, thanks for sharing!


I also play this line with White, especially as 3...Qd6 has become so popular against 3.Nc3, anywho I remember discussing the critical position after 3.Nf3 with Julio Beccerra and asking him what he does after 10...c5?!. He admitted he had never considered the move before but opined it just looked too risky, but promised to get back to me with some concrete analysis which he did. However his analysis didn't fully convince me that 10...c5 was unplayable and in fact since then the line has received a few practical tests.

Any thoughts on this line anyone?

Toppy :)

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Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:04 pm
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Rook

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:17 am
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Rating Class: Class C (1400-1600)
Post Re: curtains - L345: W vs Orange [GM] [31:54]
Man. This was breathtaking. And on my home turf. (1.e4 d5) Thanks a bunch!


Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:18 am
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Knight

Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:09 pm
Posts: 37
Post Re: curtains - L345: W vs Orange [GM] [31:54]
Zibbit wrote:
This whole line looks convincing for white. I have some stuff on it in "Play 1...Nc6" By C.Wisniewski.

1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.Be2 0-0-0 which transposes to Greg's game.

12.0-0!? is said to be most dangerous and there doesn't seem to be anything convincing for black after it, he is probably just struggling for a draw.

Wisniewski gives one game with 12...Rxd4 as played in this game and he was just in trouble there.
13.Qa4! Qxe2 14.Qxa7 Qxb2 15.Na3 Rd3 16.Qa8+ Kd7 and now he says white should have played 17.Nb5! when it seems black is in trouble.

He prefers 12...Qxd4 it seems and after 13.Qa4 wants to play 13...e6 which is supposed to be an improvement on G.Shahade-M.Fierro Baquero, Paget Parish 2001 where black was slaughtered. Black seems he might survive but white despite being pawn down has all the play with a strong bishop and good possibilites for a successful attack on the Q-side.

Good game Greg, thanks for sharing!


How does White prove an advantage after 10...c5 instead of 10...Qe4.

Ideas welcome.

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Sun May 23, 2010 9:47 am
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Knight

Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:04 am
Posts: 78
Rating Class: Novice (<1200)
Post Re: curtains - L345: W vs Orange [GM] [31:54]
Hey, poker content, I can actually comment on something.

UTG has either AA or TT (or he's kinda dumb/spazzy and has QQ, or he's REALLY dumb/weak and has AK)...but mainly he has AA or TT all day. Mig is a coach for Pokernews Strategy, a site that never actually got off the ground but obviously is a very winning player...I don't care what he has because Mig shouldn't even have been allowed in the hand.

As played, shove all-in over the top then take a long look in the mirror after you bust out. Next time, re-raise the guy and make life easier.

More poker videos every now and then would be awesome.


Wed May 26, 2010 4:26 am
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