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curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23] 
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Post curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
Poster: curtains
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Wed May 06, 2009 9:42 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
your tournament idea is original and not all that obvious. It's a semi outside the box idea and calling people idiots for not thinking of it is a bit much. It's also pretty ridiculous that you can't watch tournaments on tv without yelling at the screen because people haven't though of your clever idea.

U should give yourself quite a bit of credit for coming up with a hugely +EV play that many brilliant people had not thought of.


Thu May 07, 2009 12:34 am
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
jvspree wrote:
your tournament idea is original and not all that obvious. It's a semi outside the box idea and calling people idiots for not thinking of it is a bit much. It's also pretty ridiculous that you can't watch tournaments on tv without yelling at the screen because people haven't though of your clever idea.

U should give yourself quite a bit of credit for coming up with a hugely +EV play that many brilliant people had not thought of.


Of course they are idiots, it's not rocket science, there are thousands of brilliant poker minds playing all the time and I never see anyone do it. It's not hugely +EV that's for sure (because 90% of the time it'll probably have the same result as if you simply went allin), but it's clearly correct in many cases and I won't rest until everyone is going allin except for 5% of their stack preflop so that they have to start making a rule against such stuff because it makes for such bad TV. In past I wanted it to remain secret because it's really a huge pain to play against, especially in sit and go bubble's (which is really fucking unbelievable that no one does it there, they should all shoot themselves in the head, it's amazing how many 3rd places+ I got over my SNG career because of this crap and people betting people out etc etc). Amazing how I could do it dozens of crucial times, and yet no one would ever imitate me no matter what?

Btw I never watch poker on TV, so I'm just speaking hypothetically but I'm pretty sure no one does it. I used to watch WPT all the time for first 2-3 seasons and can't remember it happening, but ofc I wasn't as big of an expert back then at such things. Someone who is still active in the poker tournament world plz let me know if this type of thing has become standard.


Thu May 07, 2009 12:58 am
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
i think i'm the only chess player in the world that doesn't know how to play poker. :(


Thu May 07, 2009 3:06 am
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
Huh..? What happened..? :oops:


Thu May 07, 2009 4:47 am
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
I used to always save a few chips on all-ins in the old Party Fishbowl days in SNGs, but I used it to shove the flop/turn. It worked fairly often, maybe 10-20% of the time (100-200blinds, 1000chips UTG, raise to 900, BB calls, checks flop, AI for 100, BB folds), really beautiful/stupid.


Thu May 07, 2009 4:55 am
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
Noob question: if someone raises 1000 chips can not someone else just reraise 1000 + plus the big blind? Or how does this work?


Thu May 07, 2009 6:27 am
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
I bet hibris could not believe his luck with 38. g4. I look forward to watching a Ruy Lopez game.

"To raise is to increase the size of the bet required to stay in the pot, forcing all subsequent players to call the new amount. If the current bet amount is nothing, this action is considered the opening bet. A player making the second (not counting the open) or subsequent raise of a betting round is said to re-raise.

Standard poker rules require that raises must be at least equal to the amount of the previous bet or raise. For example, if an opponent bets $5, a player may raise by another $5 (or more), but he may not raise by only $2. The primary purpose of the minimum raise rule is to avoid game delays caused by "nuisance" raises (small raises of large bets, such as an extra $1 over a current bet of $50, that have little effect on the action but take time as all others must call). This rule is overridden by table stakes rules, so that a player may in fact raise a $5 bet by $2 if that $2 is his entire remaining stake."


Curtains can correct that if it's wrong.

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Thu May 07, 2009 8:41 am
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
[/quote]
Of course they are idiots, it's not rocket science, there are thousands of brilliant poker minds playing all the time and I never see anyone do it. It's not hugely +EV that's for sure (because 90% of the time it'll probably have the same result as if you simply went allin), but it's clearly correct in many cases and I won't rest until everyone is going allin except for 5% of their stack preflop so that they have to start making a rule against such stuff because it makes for such bad TV. In past I wanted it to remain secret because it's really a huge pain to play against, especially in sit and go bubble's (which is really fucking unbelievable that no one does it there, they should all shoot themselves in the head, it's amazing how many 3rd places+ I got over my SNG career because of this crap and people betting people out etc etc). Amazing how I could do it dozens of crucial times, and yet no one would ever imitate me no matter what?

Btw I never watch poker on TV, so I'm just speaking hypothetically but I'm pretty sure no one does it. I used to watch WPT all the time for first 2-3 seasons and can't remember it happening, but ofc I wasn't as big of an expert back then at such things. Someone who is still active in the poker tournament world plz let me know if this type of thing has become standard.[/quote]


It is not rocket science. But it has an element that is not obvious. This is shown by the fact that no one has thought of it. I'm shocked I've never thought of it -and think of all the geniuses that have made this obvious mistake over the years. I hate your rant about how big of idiots are everyone is for not thinking of it. Either you are strangely patting yourself on the back or your logic is flawed. You simply cannot argue that a hugely +EV idea that has not been thought of for 20+ years of tournament poker by essentially anyone is obvious - there is clearly some element to it that isn't. It's almost like one of those brain teasers puzzles that is so obvious only after you see the solution. I mean its quite possible their won't be a poker "discovery" of this magnitude in S&G's/tournament theory ever found again? You really should be taking credit for this. I mean David Sklansky is in there shoving all 12 bb's all day. Hoss TBF is shoving 12 bb's. Every ICM nerd is shoving 12 bb's as opposed to saving some % of your most valuable chips.


I offer you this. Brilliant minds are not idiots. Brilliant minds never thought of the "Curtains shove". Not knowing Curtains shove does not make you an idiot. :) And props to you, I'm semi-blown away by this concept its its obviousness and simplicity and the fact no one does it. The fact that no one has imitated you is crazy for sure. End totally tangential rant.


Thu May 07, 2009 12:37 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
Ok you are right I'm genius! The thing is I've told people before, I've posted about it once before when I was thought of as huge SNG genius expert, but no one seemed to care, as though I was joking around. But seriously I'm not that big a poker genius, I don't think there's any excuse I should be basically the only person doing something like this. (I'm sure there must be others I just haven't heard from them).

The problem with the play is it makes tournament poker really annoying/unwatchable for TV. Imagine how annoying it is to have everyone go allin -5% of their stack in spots. Annoying to play against because it's unexploitable even if you know what they are doing, and definitely annoying for TV.


Thu May 07, 2009 12:59 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
Btw I have seen it done one time on television.


Thu May 07, 2009 1:58 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
Yeah, it would be extrememly annoying for tv - they might even have to make a rule against it or something if everyone started to do it.

It also raises some interesting questions on how much of you stack to "save."

I guess the reason I am so impressed with the idea is the cleanliness of it. It's never exploitable, it's almost impossible to concoct a scenario where its not profitable. You couldn't even begin to make an argument on why your shouldn't do it. And yet very few have thought of it - all of this coming at a time, when sit and go's were close to solved.

Thanks for the tip - and looking forward to the US CHAMPS.


Thu May 07, 2009 3:00 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
People want to say "all in" so they can feel like an overconfident badass and project total strength and confidence in their hand. Nobody wants to feel like a mathematically correct, prudent investor-type by saying, "all-in, minus one." Especially on TV, there's something anti-climactic about the idea.

But yes, the mathematical correctness of the idea cannot be disputed.

PS, i do not play or watch poker, though i know the rules.

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Thu May 07, 2009 3:37 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
katar wrote:
People want to say "all in" so they can feel like an overconfident badass and project total strength and confidence in their hand. Nobody wants to feel like a mathematically correct, prudent investor-type by saying, "all-in, minus one." Especially on TV, there's something anti-climactic about the idea.

But yes, the mathematical correctness of the idea cannot be disputed.

PS, i do not play or watch poker, though i know the rules.



kind of like the refusal of bad free throw shooters to try and learn to shoot underhanded.


Thu May 07, 2009 3:41 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
I recall hearing a story where Phil Gordon did something similar, and ended up with one chip left. With that one chip, I think he came back to win the tournament. Of course I don't have a source, and it might be a figment of my imagination, but I am almost positive that's what happened.

If what your saying is 100% correct, (and I have no reason to doubt you, nor the ability to refute your claims for that matter, because I don't keep up with poker), I think the reason it's not seen, is because the players who know about it, a) think it too trivial to matter, and or b) consider it Busch league, and they would feel too embarrassed to them.

It also ties in with what Katar said, but I believe humiliation factor would be more important, then them not wanting to seem like an analytically exact player. When it comes down to it, you would think more players would rather play the best move, but don't because humanistic insecurity triumphs over logic.

BTW, have you by any chance, written an article on the subject?

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Thu May 07, 2009 5:17 pm
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