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curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23] 
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
Theriot wrote:
I recall hearing a story where Phil Gordon did something similar, and ended up with one chip left. With that one chip, I think he came back to win the tournament. Of course I don't have a source, and it might be a figment of my imagination, but I am almost positive that's what happened.

If what your saying is 100% correct, (and I have no reason to doubt you, nor the ability to refute your claims for that matter, because I don't keep up with poker), I think the reason it's not seen, is because the players who know about it, a) think it too trivial to matter, and or b) consider it Busch league, and they would feel too embarrassed to them.

It also ties in with what Katar said, but I believe humiliation factor would be more important, then them not wanting to seem like an analytically exact player. When it comes down to it, you would think more players would rather play the best move, but don't because humanistic insecurity triumphs over logic.

BTW, have you by any chance, written an article on the subject?


Nope I haven't.


Thu May 07, 2009 7:05 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
I do the "curtains shove" when there aren't antes. That story about the time you raised the pot w/ your last chip cracked me up. But why would you ever raise the pot with your last chip unless you had the absolute nuts??


Thu May 07, 2009 8:13 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
superpatrol wrote:
I do the "curtains shove" when there aren't antes. That story about the time you raised the pot w/ your last chip cracked me up. But why would you ever raise the pot with your last chip unless you had the absolute nuts??


it was river and was almost 100% certain i had the best hand, i mean the guy checked to me when i had no chips left..always v risky though as stated. Also it was maybe like 3k and I had put in 30k, so wasn't completely meaningless.


Thu May 07, 2009 8:16 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
Since you are into the NBA and probably stats and sports there is a really good article by Michael Lewis (article of moneyball) right now on Shane Battier you'd probably like. Not sure if you've seen it.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magaz ... ier-t.html

This article makes me sad that I didn't get into the sabermetrics in sports - another example of something so obvious it's amazing people didn't think of it a long, long time ago.

If you like that article, Haralobos Voulgaris wrote two really good SI articles on similar ideas - how teams don't foul early enough at ends of games, how only the Spurs realize how much better the short corner 3 is compared to other 3's on the floor etc. Don't have a link to those though.


Thu May 07, 2009 11:18 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
jvspree wrote:
If you like that article, Haralobos Voulgaris wrote two really good SI articles on similar ideas - how teams don't foul early enough at ends of games, how only the Spurs realize how much better the short corner 3 is compared to other 3's on the floor etc. Don't have a link to those though.


Wow, I looked these up and they're great reads. Thanks for posting that.

Haralobos interview

Follow up


Fri May 08, 2009 12:22 am
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
I love your rant at the end! Funny and true.


Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:07 am
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
What are some easy to learn and fun betting games? Either cards or dice or any other type is cool. The only ones I really know are Black Jack and Various forms of poker. So if you know of any other simple fun betting games, please share!
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Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:35 pm
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Pawn

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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
YOUVE ILUMINATED MY GAME! Thats the truth i never kept that last chip. Shame on me... your totally right! noone even think about that!

My english is such a crap. I lived of poker without never had to deposit ANY money, i could talk about it all day long... just maybe not in english or at least not with much charisma or softness, the harsh sound of a clueless russian guy could be a warm memory in the ears when im talking at loud or even when your reading im sure i got some issues there too.

thxs for the tip


Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:55 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
Hi. Interesting reasoning curtains but I have several points. Firstly, i think you way overestimate the usefulness of this tactic. example: this is a large multi table torni with 7-8 people left of final tble. Say you have stack of 12k {if ppl r being picky multiply by 100 like in actual ft of mtt} (blinds 500-1k) and villains both have stacks of 30k i.e gonna be 3 handed pot in all my cases to follow.

1) case: you raise maybe 10k pre. 1st calls, indeed last villain in pos might re raise allin (ur way pot committed pre flop anyway so doesnt care about u cos ur 100% allin anyway and 1st villain's flat call might look weak) = if u went allin in first place 1st villain flat calls and last villain again sees this flat call, sees weakness and using fold equity against 1st villain jams pre. therefore situation is pretty much the same in both cases.

2) case: Let's say they both call pre, 30k in pot (exclude antes/bb and sb for simplicity). you check (since you have acted first pre (by ur 10k bet) u obv act first again postflop, assume ur not bb or sb cos u act last preflop in those pos). flop 5,j,k rainbow (same flop in all cases), villain 1 checks and last villain in pos allin for 2/3 pot bet (say this guy has a pair of kings and bets it). ur turn to act, u have A10 with this flop. what do u do? there's 32k in pot (that u can win which gives u insane 16 to 1 pot odds i.e ~6%). u have about a 30% chance of spiking an A on turn/river so u HAVE to call in terms of pot odds HOWEVER according to ur theory u should hold on to this because ur last chips r the most important!!! u want to see if u can gain another position by bleeding out last 2bbs??? u have put urself in a horrible spot when u should have auto insta jammed pre flop anyway! in this spot u must call 100% as all poker experts will tell u because u have a very decent chance of spiking this ace (compared to pot odds) and decent chance 1st villain missed and folds. if u win this pot u will be right back in the game and in a very good spot, if u lose, u got 2 bbs, at this stage people will just wait for antes (antes/bb and sb back in it like in a real game) to get to u UNLESS its a complete set up pre like aces vs kings and u manage to move up a pos. people r not stupid and know u will bust soon/have to jam with any crap u have very very very soon. this is the only senario where ur better off remotly than being all in cos u have SOME chips left although u need a miracle like 3-4 double ups to have any chance of winning much more money anyway (top 3 where everyone wants to finish as this pays out an exponentially large amount of money compared to other positions).

3) case: if they check down the pot on flop, as u reckon they will in order to bust u, u lose to villain who has a pair of king (and holds) and ur stuck with 2bbs. now what? blind urself out in the hope someone else will bust even when people see ur short and will play v tight cos of it? will u jam (as u should) with any 2 cards to gain all value of the antes, be called instantly by bb or if ur really unlucky someone actually re raises with over pkt pair and ur in real trouble to win a tiny pot anyway. OR almost all of them call to bust u!

4) case: Say they both call ur 10k bet pre flop. check, check and again villain 2 bets but is cheeky and bets 2 bbs i.e u all in. ur pot committed so u call, villain 1 pot committed he calls. no diff to ur allin pre flop where he and villain 1 check down as usual.

If something is not clear feel free to ask and i will clarify.

P.S. ur chess games r great, i really enjoy watching them and ur an excellent chess player, however, ur poker seems no where near as strong as ur chess and before u have a rant at the whole poker community i think u should know more. also, u mention this strategy is used nowhere. wonder why? many poker players far better than u and me have analysed almost every aspect of the game so plz dont think this is a revolution u have come up with. furthermore, this is a chess forum, this kind of rant is completely inappropriate and seems pretty pointless to me. u want to make a proper point of it post this on major poker community web sites like 2+2 or railbirds.


Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:24 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
more reasons:
playing online, sng poker pros/grinders who multitable 10-12 tables+ will waste a lot of time with this tactic at the end game
This might look weak to other players and encourage them to try steal/more to call and see the flop. (95%, i believe, of online poker players r losing therefore there r many idiots out there)
if u vary the amount u put in it might give different tells about strength/weakness of ur hand.
during sage of sngs, u want to put as much money in as u can to force good players to call with a higher power index rating. this increases the chances of u stealing the blinds and chipping up.
tbh i have it very hard to believe u have won "a lot of money" this way...if i am missing something please explain.


Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:54 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
sniper you basically never ever fold once you do this tactic. You gave some example with KJx flop and you have AT......anyway you can keep one freaking chip...you don't even need to keep 2 BBs. Also having 2 BBs is extremely valuable compared to having zero and worth much more than the difference of having 30 instead of 32 or something like that...

Also all examples you give where there is no difference between going allin to begin with or saving a chip are meaningless. Who cares if it's the same thing, the point is we will gain a few advantageous spots and lose very little.

Forgive me but your analysis of this situation contains a few holes. I admit it's unnecessary to constantly do it in SNGS, only in very special situations is it necessary (although theoretically it's probably best to do it 100% of the time, just a bit irritating).


Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:21 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
Keeping 1 chip is pointless 99% of the time. U have 1 chip using this tactic and r auto allin next hand. In this hand 2 people go all in with aces vs kings where aces player has kings player covered. aces hold and u both lose. U still finish last and kings player finishes after u denying u that one extra spot. The ONLY case where is MIGHT help is if there is this aces vs kings kinda setup pre the very next hand and both go in. aces wins side pot but u win the main pot. kings busts out and u survive gaining that one spot. that is the only time ever tht will work. someone even with ak will defo not call an allin here with u busting imminently. the strategy makes virtually no difference and the irony is u ripped into the whole poker community and "wont stop till everyone plays like this" which i find bizarre. berating people about this is very offensive, unjust and completely out of order. i have thought about this as well and that was in the first few months i played but once i learnt about pot committing etc i realised it was almost completely pointless.

"Also having 2 BBs is extremely valuable compared to having zero and worth much more than the difference of having 30 instead of 32 or something like that..." yes thats true but u dont even seem to fully understand what ur talking about i.e or something like that...
show me my holes in my logic and i will try to see where i am wrong.

Can i just say the biggest disappointment is that i really enjoy ur videos, very amusing and done extremely well and i like the person u come across as in these, however, in this one case u sound like an extremely arrogant and kinda obnoxious person. weird thing is that u dont seem arrogant 95% of the time saying u need to improve ur game a lot, being frank if ur not sure about certain moves and being quite humble in ur chess success (except when u won 12 in a row which was amazing anyway and u were fully justified for ur joy). its kinda outta character but again i really respect ur chess game!


Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:46 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
whatever man, none of the arguments you've given are even slightly convincing, the money at a final table is monstrously huge, and even if it helps just 1 time in 100, that's a huge amount IMO. To scoff at that as though it's meaningless is crazy talk.

It's a spot where you lose practically zero from making this kind of play and stand to gain something. Also I don't believe you understand all the strategic facets of the play but I don't want to just keep repeating myself. If you don't want to take any edge you can get at a freaking final table where the huge money is, then I don't know what to say to you.

I don't care if it helps 1 time out of 1000, if it never hurts me, then it's absurd not to do it. Given my personal experience from doing this, I can tell you it works a lot more often than you are implying, given that I didn't have so many opportunities to make this play, yet I can precisely recall situations where it worked out in my favor, and obviously it's impossible to recall any situations where it hurt me, because it never really does.


Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:19 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
I for one enjoy the poker commentary even though this is a chess forum. would love to hear more of it in the vids.

greg do u ever play heads up, sngs, mtts etc. or do you stick to short stacking cash games?


Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:58 pm
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Post Re: curtains - L403: W vs hibris [27:23]
I have just looked u up on wiki and it says ur a pro poker player. i got completely the wrong impression and i apologise for that. i just didnt like the way u seemed to have a rant about poker. anyway r u still pro/do u play online? fine if u dont answer, im just curious cos i have debated about a poker profession a few times and would appreciate ur help. thanks.


Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:57 pm
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