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Weird opening position (your thoughts?) 
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Post Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
Image

What do y'all think about this position? White to move.

Tomorrow I'll post my thoughts along with more details about the position.

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Mon May 31, 2010 8:32 pm
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
To judge the position, I first tried to replicate it. Here is what I figured the game might have started:

1.e4 e5 2.d4 d6 3.dxe5 dxe5 4.Qxd8+ Kxd8 5.Bc4 Be6 6.Bxe6 fxe6 7.Nc3 Nd7
8.f3 Ngf6 9.Be3 Bd6 10.O-O-O Ke7 11.Na4



I think white retains a slight edge due to control of the open file and better pawn structure. In addition, white's bishop seems a better piece than blacks' bishop. After a move like say 11... b5 12. Nc3 c6 13. Nh3 h6

Image
Position after 13... h6
and something like 14. Rd2 black might try say 14...Bc5

As white I would try for f4 and trade off the e5 pawn so I could use f4 and d4 as bases for my knights to pressure e6 and if black then plays e6-e5, eventually the f5 or d5 outposts could become available.

As black, I think Bc5 and BxB are priorities, and sticking a knight on d4 and maybe rooks on d8 and f8.

Overall I feel like black will be on the harder to play side of a draw in that position. These are just my initial thought mind you, with little to no concrete analysis - and coming from a player 2 class levels below you :D

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Mon May 31, 2010 9:27 pm
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
I'll give it a shot:

Quote:
Minor Pieces
Both sides have two knights and a dark square bishop.
White's knights are poorly placed, and the g1 knight will have a very hard time finding a good square to move to. The e5 pawn really restricts its movement after the natural developing move, Ne2. Another idea is the maneuver Na3-f2-d3 to put pressure on the e5 pawn, but it seems very slow and black's attacking ideas will come quicker. White's bishop is very well posted and controls many squares.

Black's minor pieces are centrally posted and control many key squares. Black's darksquare bishop is functioning more or less as a giant pawn, guarding e5.

Pawn Structure:
Black has doubled pawns, but has the development advantage and centrally posted pieces. The doubled pawns control key squares on the board, and can't really be attacked all too well. Even if the white bishop made it to G3 or c3, the knights have no good squares to attack either of the pawns. Black also has two open files to work with.

White has a more solid pawn structure, but e4 can be quickly made a liability if black starts a minority attack along the h and g files. White has the open e-file and after developing the knight, can double the rooks and apply pressure.

King Safety
Both kings are reasonably safe. If black allows white to double up on the E-file, that might change. Black's king is rather well posted for an endgame.


I'd say black has a rather significant positional advantage. Black has a huge central presence, is much better developed, and his doubled pawns are a strength, not a liability.

White should focus on developing his pieces and making use of his control over the open E-file and improving his activity. The doubled-isolated pawns in the center seem way too well defended to be the object of attack.

White's obvious move is Ne2, developing his piece, connecting the rooks, and improving his central control. White's main plan would be to double up on the E-file, bring his knights to more centralized squares, and begin an attack gaining space on the right side of the board (looking at the diagram). Black is trying to dominate the center, prevent all of white's counterplay, then beginning a minority attack to undermine the e4 pawn.[/s]

EDIT: Kaaaayyy... maybe not. Nh3 basically shuts down all of black's play.


Last edited by Hapa on Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:47 am, edited 3 times in total.



Mon May 31, 2010 9:48 pm
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
Whoops, I missed that it was white to move. Now I gotta figure out how to get to that position and lose a tempo! sheesh

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Mon May 31, 2010 9:56 pm
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
JWhis wrote:
Whoops, I missed that it was white to move. Now I gotta figure out how to get to that position and lose a tempo! sheesh


Yeah that one threw me off bigtime... Did the whole analysis for black the first time through ^^


Mon May 31, 2010 9:59 pm
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
JoshSpecht wrote:
What do y'all think about this position? White to move.

I think Rybka vs Rybka its a draw. Human versus Human, either side could take a full point.


Mon May 31, 2010 10:40 pm
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
I think 'tis a rather boring position aimed at by people who bought the so-called "explosive" repertoire book that recommends this sort of thing. 1.e4 d6 2.d4 e5 3.de de 4.QxQ, etc.

White's biggest danger of losing is to get bored out of his mind. I will say that white already screwed up IMO b/c i tend to think Nd2 and c2-c3 is a better plan. Knight on d2 can go to c4. I have no idea why that knight ended up on a4. Black will play Nh5-f4 practically forcing g2-g3 then f3-pawn can be weak.

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Mon May 31, 2010 11:14 pm
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
I think white is better. It's going to be very hard for black to execute any freeing plan. I think white should play Nh3, putting his second knight on the rim, and play Rhf1 at some point. After Rhf1, black will always have to guard against f4 when white has some attack. Also, I think white should bring his knight from a4 back to c3 at some point so that it is playing. The knight on h3 can someday move to f2.

Now these are just very very general ideas, but what can black do in the meantime? Putting a knight on f4 brings nothing when white can swap it off and then play Na4-c3-e2 to force e5-e4 leaving black with a horrible bishop. Queenside expansion is stopped by b4 when black plays b5.

Basically white can sit on black and wait for black to do anything that weakens his position.

@Josh, this looks like that d4 d6 e4 d5 stuff that you like. Were you black in this game?


Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:04 am
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
Andrewrun wrote:
...Queenside expansion is stopped by b4 when black plays b5...


It seems like black can put a rook on g8, play h4, then advance the g pawn, I don't see how the attack is stopped by g5, unless I'm missing something (which I probably am...)


Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:16 am
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
I also thought White was better. It just looks like the kind of position White can play forever.


Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:26 am
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
Hapa wrote:
Andrewrun wrote:
...Queenside expansion is stopped by b4 when black plays b5...


It seems like black can put a rook on g8, play h4, then advance the g pawn, I don't see how the attack is stopped by g5, unless I'm missing something (which I probably am...)


Assuming that white plays 1.Nh3, black's pawn is never going to make it to g5. If you try to play for h6 and then g5, white ends up playing Nf2 and h3 which stops everything on the kingside. Then any attempt by black to open the kingside just gives white open files and black's king can come under fire when a rook gets to the 7th.

I think black's best plan is to try and trade the pieces and just hold on for the draw.


Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:33 am
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
"I'd say black has a rather significant positional advantage"

Black is playing this to draw, I have a hard time agreeing with the above statement, especially the significant part! I don't think there will be many takers for that statement.


Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:40 am
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
Zibbit wrote:
"I'd say black has a rather significant positional advantage"

Black is playing this to draw, I have a hard time agreeing with the above statement, especially the significant part! I don't think there will be many takers for that statement.


So I'm learning the more I look at it... T_T


Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:45 am
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
Black is fine. He has excellent doubled pawns in the center (they control a lot of squares), the bishop blocks the d-file and Black can play on the f-file (e.g. with a minority attack). This is the reason I hate to trade queens so early.

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Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:06 am
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Post Re: Weird opening position (your thoughts?)
Black owns the center White pushes QS pawns starting with g4. I think this position calls for dynamic play, and white must play on the flanks and fast! Without looking at a computer, this is what I would do for what it is worth. Cheers 8)

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Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:26 am
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