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curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41] 
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Knight

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:22 am
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 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
You guys make me laugh. I swear this is why poker is so profitable.


Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:33 pm
Knight

Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:16 am
Posts: 30
 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
some of the replies in this thread made me lol. To say there is not skill in poker is really funny. When people tell me this I usually just say I must be the luckiest person alive then since when I started playing online shortly after I turned 18 I never deposited and then a now less than a year since then I have turned that 0 into more than most make in a year while going to school full time. I think a reason a good amount of chess players do well because if you study hard at poker like chess you will often see the results, but chess is by far the better game!


Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:49 pm
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 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
You are only more successful because you are more skilled than most but still poker is mostly about luck.
It is not like chess where each move you make is based on what you think and your own plan.

You can laugh as much as you want but I would like to see the poker player that can influence the starting hand without cheating.
In chess you get either black or white and the pieces is on their respective place and not so in poker.

It is not like so in chess that you have a set percentage chance to win if you make one move while that is the truth in poker because you never know what your opponent will do and you never know which card you will get etc. You are playing with the knowledge of the percentage chances and the more you know the better it is for you and you develop the playing style after that.
For me that you say that you laugh when you see such replies that luck means more than skill in Poker is a insult.
Try to debate the subject instead.

Even if you are a professional poker player and clearly better than me I have no doubt you can loose to someone that does not know a single thing about percentage chances and nothing else about poker..is that about skill or luck?

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Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:24 pm
Knight

Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:16 am
Posts: 30
 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
hmm so I jsut tried to post a reply not logged in but that didn't worklol........If I were to play this "patzer" for just one hand sure he could win that hand but if we played a long time together i would win period. I also like how you said the reason I'm more sucessful is because I'm more skilled THIS MUST MEAN THERE IS SKILL IN POKER!??!?!?!?! Why was Gary Kasparov so sucessful???? BECAUSE HE WAS MORE SKILLED MAYBE?!?! Its funny you say i'm not debating but all you are reallying saying is there is just mostly luck in poker....gg


Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:23 pm
King

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:31 am
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 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
Yeah so he could win you just said..because of luck or because of his skill? and I say because of luck. I never said there is no skill in poker. So you clearly did not read what I typed maybe? I am just saying that there is a lot of luck in poker and I do not know if it has been tested or anything but I would say it is about 60% luck and 40% skill at best when all things are equal.
I do not really consider someone laughing at someone else's opinion a way of debating something. That is just rude behavior.
And the thing about Gary Kasparov is kinda out of place? Both you and me agree that you would win over a "patzer" in the long run because you are more skilled than him/her and so is the case with Kasparov too or was anyway.
If you have the knowledge and the style of play to cover for it you can influence the luck/skill to your advantage over others but it still does not mean that luck is not most crucial.
You can have a real nice starting hand with 2 aces and have a 40% chance calculated win chance but that does not let you win if someone picks up three of a kind on the river, what would you call that? I have seen American poker tour events where professional poker players call when they clearly know they have the worse hand and they still won anyway. It is called calculated risk. The call is based on skill but the result in based on luck.

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Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:58 pm
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 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
I have no idea wtf all of you are talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:55 pm
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 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
Maple Stevens wrote:
Yeah so he could win you just said..because of luck or because of his skill? and I say because of luck. I never said there is no skill in poker. So you clearly did not read what I typed maybe? I am just saying that there is a lot of luck in poker and I do not know if it has been tested or anything but I would say it is about 60% luck and 40% skill at best when all things are equal.
I do not really consider someone laughing at someone else's opinion a way of debating something. That is just rude behavior.
And the thing about Gary Kasparov is kinda out of place? Both you and me agree that you would win over a "patzer" in the long run because you are more skilled than him/her and so is the case with Kasparov too or was anyway.
If you have the knowledge and the style of play to cover for it you can influence the luck/skill to your advantage over others but it still does not mean that luck is not most crucial.
You can have a real nice starting hand with 2 aces and have a 40% chance calculated win chance but that does not let you win if someone picks up three of a kind on the river, what would you call that? I have seen American poker tour events where professional poker players call when they clearly know they have the worse hand and they still won anyway. It is called calculated risk. The call is based on skill but the result in based on luck.


Exactly my opinion. I share your view 100%.
I can't understand why people try to persuade each other that poker is game of "skillz". I mean...of course poker is a game based on luck.

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Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:31 am
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Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:49 pm
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 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
Poker, just like chess is 100% SKILL.

If you can't grasp that, then I can only insult your intelligence but I won't.


You will get pocket pairs just as often as any other player in the world. Of course this won't be completely accurate untill you play a lot of hands etc but you get my point.

Every player gets every type of card. It's how you play yours.

Luck does not exist.

If you run on a 10 storey building fall of and land on your HEAD and survive... That doesn't mean you have some supernatural ability to do things others can't. It only means your one of the 1/221123172387687362712634781234871264781263487 that amazingly survived that. Try it again and see if your luck exists.

Luck is only a word that ppl use when something unlikly happens.

If someone says, "I got lucky" they really didn't get anything. Their opponent will probably have the same thing happen to them just as often... Just at another time.

It's how you play YOUR cards. If a lot of ppl were a lot smarter then there would be a lot more respect for something as sophisticated as poker... but I guess not.

I once told a guy, Deuce Seven is the worst starting hand you can get. Then he was like, "but what if you make a two pair! HAHA see its not the worst..."

Please try to understand what I'm saying, just thought I'd say something.

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Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:20 pm
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 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
Pretty sure you misunderstand the definition of the word "luck". Poker isn't 100% skill obviously. The point is that there is always a correct decision that can be made (which can change based on a billion factors and sometimes will be impossible to determine), but that the correct result won't always come out of that play, which is the luck part of the game.

The difference in chess is that when you play "perfectly", you will basically never lose, whereas in poker this isn't at all true. This is pretty much what luck is!

Just because your results should even out after millions of hands, doesn't mean that luck doesn't exist. It simply means that it's effect is lessened over many hands.


Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:48 pm
King

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:31 am
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 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
I understand what you are saying but that does not mean that you are right.

Poker is a luck based game that you partly or mostly can get around with skills. You determine which hands you are going to play with, you determine how many cards you discard etc and you make those decisions for a reason (ie your skill) but the results of your decisions is purely luck based since you do not know what card will come you only know the percentage chance of that particullar card or combination. So for you to say it is 100% skill then you are cheating.

Luck is a chance happening, of that which happens beyond a person's control. Luck can be good or bad. It is the same as chance, risk or whatever word you want to use when come to poker.

And deuce seven is not the worst hand you can get. If you get nothing then that is worse. It all depends on circumstances. There is no such thing as the worst hand until we reach the call of everybodys hands. I can bluff, I can get another 7...all other opponents can have nothing etc. It is you who decide if you want to play it or not.

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Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:53 pm
Knight

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:22 am
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 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
Any individual hand can have 99% luck. If you are a tournament player, then any single tournament can be almost entirely luck (check out Gold, or Moneymaker). However, if you play enough, making the right decisions will make you a winner.

Personally, I have been a professional poker player for about 4 years now. I have never had a losing month of poker. Am I the luckiest person in the world? Of course not. I simply play enough hands every month that luck is a very small factor in what my overall results for the month will be.

Anyone who is under the impression that long-term results in poker have more to do with luck than skill is either a horrible player that uses this argument to justify why they lose, or is simply ignorant.


Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:35 am
Probation

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:49 pm
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 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
Wow.

Listen dude. Deuce seven... IS THE WORST "starting hand". I'm not even debating something as obvious as that.

You have a perception that if you lose at poker it was bad luck and win that will be good luck. You are FORCED to lose A LOT of hands in poker. That doesn't mean luck exists in the traditional sence that you believe.

Maximize wins, minimize losses. Luck really is not what you think it is Maple Stevens.

Luck is only a word to fit into something like the following:


Throw a die hit a predicted side - say 6 - of it and go wow...how lucky. But actually you will hit 1,2,3,4 and 5 just as often so you can't assume that if you constantly played that you will keep being "lucky".



Errr... actually just whatever. This can easily be debated from both sides probably.

I see poker as the following. No matter what you will have instability(I don't call it luck :P) unless you play a lot.

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Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:02 am
King

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 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
You obviously did not read everything I wrote. I have never said that everything is decided by luck only. You take decisions that raise the chance of winning to your advantage. Try to play your game without looking at the cards or whatever and you will see how successfull you are. If you decide to not play a offsuit 2-7 then it most likely will work to your advantage but there is a slight chance you would have won that hand if you did play it..though the chance loosing would be higher. By making such decisions over the long run you raise your own winning chances and that is what makes a good pokerplayer.

All in all..you never know which card is going to be on the table the next time. There are mathematical chances of this and that card to come or this and that combination of combination of cards to come. By knowing those (ie skill) (and other techniques) then you raise your chance of winning but it is still luck that decides which card will come.
Thing is..Poker is just a way to narrowing down everything.
You can play a game which is like the following. 2 people play a game. Each pick a card out of 54 and highest wins with red colours worth more than black colours. It is the same type of elements that are in poker in essence. You know there are 14 of each colour. And there are 4 colours. If I get a 2 of spades that would most likely tell me to not bet on me winning and vice versa. Luck decides which card I get and in essence much of the result in this case as the card is not really playable.
You can think the very same way about poker it is just that it is more advanced and more skillbased than this trivial example.
You are not playing every hand I think. And why? You think your hand is too bad? Why is it too bad? Cause there are other types of better starting hands. Do you know this is the case? no, but experience/knowledge tells you it is. But the very outcome of the possibility of either this and that is pure down to luck only.

Oh well..=) I think I written too much and I have already dwelled on it..but fun it was!

Over and out for me

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Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:44 am
Pawn

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:12 pm
Posts: 13
 Re: curtains - L287: B vs popsike [19:41]
mc4chess wrote:
some of the replies in this thread made me lol. To say there is not skill in poker is really funny. When people tell me this I usually just say I must be the luckiest person alive then since when I started playing online shortly after I turned 18 I never deposited and then a now less than a year since then I have turned that 0 into more than most make in a year while going to school full time. I think a reason a good amount of chess players do well because if you study hard at poker like chess you will often see the results, but chess is by far the better game!


No one claimed there is no skill in poker. Please do not resort to these strawmans.


Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:01 pm
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