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kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14] 
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 kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
Poster: kamus
Rating Class: Class B (1600-1800) | Videos Made: 241
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Video Tags: King Pawn opening Mike Basman opening Tayler Opening Tayler Variation unorthodox openings

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Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:13 pm
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
On reflection, my arrogant sounding statement "I probably know more about this line than anyone in the world" is supposed to suggest more that there is a shocking paucity of available material on this line than me trying to pass myself off as any great erudite expert. If I was going to redo this video, I would have phrased that differently so as not to come off as some kind of pompous ass :roll: If anyone else plays this, I would love to see any games played in the line- please let me know.

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Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:14 pm
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
kamus wrote:
...If I was going to redo this video, I would have phrased that differently so as not to come off as some kind of pompous ass :roll:

I didn't gather that at all from your video, I use such comments myself as it adds flavor.

I rather liked the Taylor and might try it in blitz, but slower otb it would not be my cup of tea. If Black comes at it tactically it looks good, but in a slower positional fight I have my doubts. Good presentation nonetheless.

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Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:51 am
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
This video is terrific. It's obvious you have a lot of specialized knowledge and practical wisdom about this opening. In fact, with this video you have probably created the best introduction that exists on this opening, in any format.

Seems like a great opening to play against lower rated players: fair chance you finish early, and worst-case scenario you're just equal in the middlegame.

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Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:15 am
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
Great video, I'd definitely enjoy more of the Tayler.


Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:38 am
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
Thanks for the comments, everyone. :D Steve, I'd be curious to know more about your positional doubts. I personally think the opening is pretty solid, though there are more dynamic choices out there, to be sure. Looking at the CB Mega database, there are a handful of games in the line with mixed results for white. I have played through most of them and in a surprising number of cases, white did not play the best line/setup.

Also, if anyone knows anything about John Tayler, the author of the line. please let me know. The last I heard about him was that he was active as a county player in Leicester back in the 70's. I can find nothing on him via google.

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Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:35 am
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
kamus wrote:
Thanks for the comments, everyone. :D Steve, I'd be curious to know more about your positional doubts. I personally think the opening is pretty solid, though there are more dynamic choices out there, to be sure. Looking at the CB Mega database, there are a handful of games in the line with mixed results for white. I have played through most of them and in a surprising number of cases, white did not play the best line/setup.


That's weird, I looked at a handful of games where Black came out swinging and I felt that Black missed some opportunities as well. Guess it depends on which team you are cheering for, but to be fair, I am the kind of guy who always feels the referees never call fouls on the other team :lol:

I'm not going to knock the ideas behind your opening choice, White probably scores about 52% like all other openings (maybe 1.a3 or 1.f3 might drop down to 50%-51%, I don't know and worse yet, don't care to find out). If I were faced with 3.Be2 I would probably just reflexively respond with 3...g6 and I have no idea what percentage this move scores. But my point proves your point... I am not expecting the move Be2, and that is the type of player you want to play it against.

On the flip side, I have played chess for 35 years and I have seen just about everything (and yes, the Tayler when I was in Washington but I no longer have that score nor remember the result). The way I handle such openings is to realize that, first off, there is no direct bust. Secondly, I try to find a line where the Bishop may be oddly placed. If I cannot find a line to make the bishop out of place, I just look to keep an equal game and let things heat up later in the game.

From early on in my chess career I learned to understand the main lines of all the openings. I know the ideas behind the Slav, Nimzo-Indian and Queen's Indian, but I don't play them as Black and I never open with 1.d4 as White. So why would I study them? To get a feel for what strong masters play any given position, as they almost always play main lines (for a very good reason).

Chess is a game that, in my opinion, should be played for fun. With this point of view, go ahead and play whatever line you like to play. But I also see the game as an endless source of amusement and knowledge. Having played for 35 years I still learn new stuff (or, more likely, refresh myself of things I've long forgotten?), and new things keeps coming. For me, where the opening is concerned, the new things are much deeper in the opening approaching the middle game or actually in the middle game.

I didn't mean to make this reply so lengthy, but I wanted to make my point clear. I feel there is nothing wrong with Tayler's idea, it's a handy weapon in the arsenal. I do feel that for a player to get better they should study the main lines of topical openings, a sort of 'take the bull by the horns' approach.

Dennis Monokroussos mentions an analogy of 'peek-a-boo' in his latest Viewers Questions (viewtopic.php?t=4815). Playing the main lines I find most enjoyable, playing into some offshoot from the main line doesn't disturb me as much as my opponent's may think. My thoughts at a new move move have two steps; first I think my opponent doesn't know the main line and has played an inferior move, then I think of a way to exploit it in some manner. Depending entirely on the position I will look for a direct tactical refutation, and failing that, I will look for the strategical response. The point being that, since I know the main lines I will know the exact point at which my opponent wondered off the path and can then focus more time and attention to that position.

At move three it is a very simple task to determine if there is a tactical refutation and to quickly look for a positionally correct way to move forward. Flip this around and play a main line where at move 15 you play a Novelty (or, more likely revive some old move from the '60's or '70's) then the situation is much different. In this case your opponent is likely to have to consider many ramifications to he next move.

In closing let me leave you with an example of a friend of mine. My friend is about 1750-1800 and has been there a long time. He plays off-beat openings such as the Latvian, Elephant Gambit, Kalashnikov etc. He is a very sharp tactical player, certainly equal to me. He can summon up an attack in some positions like a magician, but the openings he plays often do not coordinate his pieces most effectively. He will pick up a new system and get a win from an unsuspecting victim, but soon finds that he is losing more with these lines than winning. Now, had this chap taken the time to study more of the main lines from the beginning, I am sure that he would be in the high Expert/low Master level. Strategy in chess must come from the position at hand, not in the choice of opening you are going to play.

Boy! My reply went too long... my apologies!

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Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:20 pm
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
I think when I get better you and me would have some real interesting games, sfarmer. From reading your posts, you sound like you play sort of the same principles as me!

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Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:54 pm
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
Steve, thanks for your considered comments. I find little to disagree with and in fact what you said about mainline vs offbeats echoes virtually every other strong player I've talked to (except maybe Mike Basman. I'm in the process now of adopting more mainline stuff (Berlin Defence, Queen's Gambit etc.) as I progress and that's partly why I decided to share the video. BTW, I hope I didn't come across as too biased about the Tayler. I think it's a pretty solid line with some nice seductive traps for the unwary but I'm well aware that black can equalize fairly easily in a number of lines. I've been successful with it precisely because I'm a low rated players and consequently the people I play (1800 and below) often fall into the trappy lines with delectable frequency. It has been played at a higher level with pretty mediocre results as you note. I play the line for fun, as you suggest, and the whole point of the video was just to share the fun with others.

Also, I hope you didn't think I was challenging you in any way when I asked about your positional doubts. I just wanted to hear your opinion since you are a better player- I figured I would learn something and I did- thanks!. I suppose there is a strong case to be made the e2 bishop is passive/anti-positional but I don't think it's really all that bad. Black can't aggressively place his bishop on c5 due to the fork trick and it also takes the teeth out any potential Bg4 pin so therefore it turns out that the Be2 move has an oddly limiting effect on the black position even from it's passive looking post. There are also a few lines where it moves a second time to good effect and I although this is anti-positional to some extent, though there are several openings that feature a piece that moves twice- Alekhines, Bird Defence to the Ruy Lopez, Two Knights etc. that are perfectly viable. I would not likely play the Tayler against a high rated player (for me, anyone over 1800) because experience has shown these guys can puzzle out the equalizing lines pretty fast much as you describe. As far as the games in the database, there were games where white failed to play an early d4 which I think is the most dynamic way to play the line and other places where there were better lines available. Certainly I agree with the rest of your assessment about missed black opportunities though. There is a Tayler correspondence tournament going on now and I'll be very interested to see the games.

Thanks again for the discussion.

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Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:22 am
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
Just noticed that this was put in "beginner strategy openings"- was it moved there or did I just imagine that I tagged it as "intermediate" when I uploaded it?

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Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:25 am
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
kamus wrote:
Just noticed that this was put in "beginner strategy openings"- was it moved there or did I just imagine that I tagged it as "intermediate" when I uploaded it?

As best as I can recall it was originally listed as beginner, but I may be wrong.

The Tayler ain't all that bad, if you only lose half a tempo (since you are White after all) then you have risked little in this venture. It's somewhat equal to a poker player playing an iffy hand if the pot offers good returns. Play it in good health and in good conscience :wink:

There certainly some interesting tricks that come out of this line, like you mentioned right out of the start, the Q on d4 has a weird pin on the N on e5 to the g-pawn.

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Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:41 am
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
I never played the Tayler, but I suspect you can probably play it to 2000 at least, with good success. After all Be2 is just a less active post than Bb5 or Bc4. I haven't looked into the lines, but if White can find ways to make this Bishop move count he should be somwhat better. For example the 3...g6 line could well transpose into a Classical Pirc.
I agree with sfarmer concerning main lines, if you understand those you are likely to figure out the lesser moves on your own to a certain extent. But sometimes the lesser moves demand as much respect as the main lines and I guess the Tayler may be such a line. I don't think it can be much worse than the Italian game, which is theoretically pretty much equal everywhere if I'm not mistaken. Still people play it (and win with it) because they enjoy the positions.


Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:56 am
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
The article I wrote on the Tayler has been finally published in UON 26 (The Unorthodox Opening Newsletter). It is available here:

http://nationalchessacademy.org/Media/UON_26_2010rf.pdf

Perhaps more enticing than my modest effort is the interview (w. photos) with Alexandra Kosteniuk and other theoretical articles of interest to players of unorthodox openings that appear in the same issue.

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Tue May 04, 2010 11:08 am
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
I'll definitely check that out. One quick note: the position after 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Be2 Bc5?! 4.Nxe5! is the same as the position in Greet's Play the Ruy Lopez, chapter on the classical. Except the Bishop is on e2 instead of b5. That's an interesting comparison, I think most variations Greet gives would still apply to the Tayler! For example 4...Bxf2+ 5.Kxf2 Nxe5 6.d4 Qf6+ 7.Kg1 Ng6 8.Nc3 c6 9.Bc4 d6 10.Be3 N8e7 11.Qd2 +-


Tue May 11, 2010 5:49 am
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 Re: kamus - Tayler_intro.mov [50:14]
my first blitz 3/0 against the Tayler. i forgot about the 2N transposition oops... Kamus is f5 even a move??

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