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curtains - L590: W vs Chessburger (FM-2376) FREE! [28:01] 
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King
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 Re: curtains - L590: W vs Chessburger (FM-2376) FREE! [28:01
howboutnot wrote:
some aversion to it from evolution
...
These reasons aren't present when it comes to homosexuality
...

In a purely evolutionary context, homosexuality reduces a species' chances of survival over long periods of time (i.e., millions of years). more homosexuality = less babies

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Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:19 am
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 Re: curtains - L590: W vs Chessburger (FM-2376) FREE! [28:01
katar wrote:
howboutnot wrote:
some aversion to it from evolution
...
These reasons aren't present when it comes to homosexuality
...

In a purely evolutionary context, homosexuality reduces a species' chances of survival over long periods of time (i.e., millions of years). more homosexuality = less babies

And yet, Black swans, Gulls, Mallards, Penguins, Vultures, Pigeons, Amazon Dolphins, American Bison, Bonobo and other apes, Bottlenose dolphins, Elephants, Giraffes, Humans, Japanese macaque, Lions, Polecats, Sheep, Spotted Hyenas, Lizards, Dragonflies, Fruit flies and Bed bugs ALL exhibit degrees of homosexual behavior, and yet many are apex predators in their environment. So the evolutionary argument against homosexuality is ridiculous.

In fact, according to wikipedia (a reliable source :roll: ), 9 out of 10 giraffe matings are between two males.
Quote:
Bruce Bagemihl, citing a study by Leuthold, W. (1977): African Ungulates: A Comparative Review of Their Ethology and Behavioural Ecology. Springer Verlag, Berlin, cited in Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity, 1999;


I don't see giraffes on any endangered species list. :lol:


Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:30 pm
King
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 Re: curtains - L590: W vs Chessburger (FM-2376) FREE! [28:01
As i understand it, the argument is that there are gender-specific anatomical features that serve very specific reproductive functions. The use of said features for the corresponding functions necessarily has a basis in evolution.

I don't even necessarily agree with the above, but i do not find it "ridiculous".

A better argument IMO is whether evolutionary criteria should even apply at all in a civilized society of complex emotional beings where the sex act is primarily emotional or recreational rather than functional.

Of course i disclaim any statements herein as this comment is intended purely for the sake of argument.

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Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:08 pm
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 Re: curtains - L590: W vs Chessburger (FM-2376) FREE! [28:01
Not to de-rail your debate, but I 100% support homosexuality. Especially if the man is smarter, wealthier, funnier, or better looking than me.

Less competition = better chance I have to marry Emmanuelle Chriqui.

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Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:31 pm
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 Re: curtains - L590: W vs Chessburger (FM-2376) FREE! [28:01
Delayed reply here, didn't think some1 else would comment on this. You do have a point Katar, saying that evolutional roots of homophobia may exist. I happen to be disinclined to believe that's the case. For starters homophobia isn't in the far-overwhelming majority for the species or for any race of people (perhaps culture, but not race I'm quite confident). If there was a real, well-established genetic aversion wouldn't you be able to see it in the entire genetic group? And you may say, "Well some ppl are into scat, so you don't see that aversion in the whole group"-- but my guess is those ppl might even admit that they do have natural physical aversion to it, and do it essentially b/c of the disgust factor, or anti-establishment factor or what have you (so I don't think it's really comparable).

When you say that more homosexuality=less babies, you suggest a viewpoint that probably most people have had for centuries, namely that each individual is by nature essentially straight or essentially gay. But historically speaking homosexual relations do not necessarily diminish heterosexual relations, and I'm pretty sure the Greeks left records of both kinds being in the mainstream. One point of what I'm saying is that strong homophobia is not evolutionally encouraged b/c the occasional homosexual encounter rarely hurt one's chances at procreation, and in some cases (supposedly Greek phalanxes were an example) may have helped one's chances at survival. A homosexual interaction isn't likely to give you a bacterial illness like feces often does, it doesn't threaten your survival (except in an established homophobic culture. you'll note that homophobia in these historical cultures does not indicate the presence of a homophobic gene-- these people generally also killed witches etc).


Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:12 pm
King
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 Re: curtains - L590: W vs Chessburger (FM-2376) FREE! [28:01
Howboutnot:

A very fair and well-reasoned, constructive response, IMO. I've heard that wealthy Greek (Roman?) men commonly had sexual relationships with boys (sorta like US Congressmen nowadays ;)). My only response would be that if it's true that "homosexual relations do not necessarily diminish heterosexual relations", then doesn't this assumption refute the theory that gay individuals are simply "born that way" (aka "it's not a choice")? I mean, if individuals are equally likely to procreate even after engaging in homosexual encounters, wouldn't that lend support to the idea that being gay is a "choice"? Just food for thought...

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Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:27 pm
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 Re: curtains - L590: W vs Chessburger (FM-2376) FREE! [28:01
TheEnterprise wrote:
Less competition = better chance I have to marry Emmanuelle Chriqui.


HUGE LIKE....always had a crush on that girl!

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Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:40 pm
Pawn

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 Re: curtains - L590: W vs Chessburger (FM-2376) FREE! [28:01
:/ I just typed for a half hour and somehow wasn't logged in when I submitted, lost like a page, but who wants to read that much anyways.

Anyways I was going to mention that the main reason I had felt homophobia was unlikely to be genetic was that it doesn't seem like something DNA can give you, at least not without some major drawbacks. One thing DNA is unlikely to do is brand various phrases into you in such a way that they become core feelings, ("gay sex is gross", or "I do not want to touch vagina unless it is the particular vagina that gets wet when I wanting sexy times"). The concept of gay sex is also a very complex one for DNA to try to get you to dislike it. I mean you can take the example of feral children as an indication that DNA can't pre-program you to like the aesthetic of the human form especially, let alone the aesthetic of a specific gender or mode of sexual interaction. Now it might be rare for two alpha males vying for top-position to desire each other sexually, you know, and other anti-homosexual inclinations might be stumbled upon through natural social structure, but a blanket homophobia doesn't seem like it's going to just naturally bubble up from the DNA. Aversion to feces is another matter since that's as simple as a receptor in the nose.

I was going to extend that idea that we're relatively blank slates at birth to your comment, Katar, and write apparently a whole heck of a lot more but now I'm cranky. Of course our brains form certain ways through our experiences so I wouldn't say sexuality is a 'choice'.
An objection you might raise in response to this and prior posts, is why don't we tend towards bisexuality, at least not in this era? Well, brains are sometimes much more 'malleable' during trauma or arousal, right? In any era, due to the latter (arousal), when you go one way you do kind of tend to stick to it. Essentially you can see homosexuality like "falling in love" with one's niche(s) in the gay community, except this lover has more than one face so it takes longer to get bored and move on.There's also the matter of sex being a social thing as well as visual/tactile.
A reason sexuality kind of has its distinct-looking branches these days is that with homosexuality the social element increases as gay community/identity becomes more expressed; so that's one new ingredient. Another 'new ingredient' is of course that we have access to more ppl, so we're more inclined to be picky and not tinker around much with the other kind.


Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:52 pm
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 Re: curtains - L590: W vs Chessburger (FM-2376) FREE! [28:01
damn, your CB10 runs fast - think slower then molassas here - ugh

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Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:00 am
Pawn

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 Re: curtains - L590: W vs Chessburger (FM-2376) FREE! [28:01
Well My friend I actually wanted to say that I'm sure the Jews repulsed many Nazis. It's no excuse for anti-semitism. Intolorance leads to bad things, and I think nipping it in the bud by cultivating an open-minded attitude, is the best way to negate possible violence or oppression in the future.


Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:12 am
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